5 ms·

These kinds of things happen and the waters immediately get murky. Even those closest to the person in question are never really 100% sure. Reminds me of the d

These kinds of things happen and the waters immediately get murky. Even those closest to the person in question are never really 100% sure. Reminds me of the death of journalist Michael Hastings in 2013. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#... Richard Clarke's assessment seemed to carry the weight of truth. But only to a point. Just enough to engage the suspicions of family and friends, but no more. Same for John Barnett.

whimsicalism 3y ago
In my view, almost all of these are accidents or suicides and people watch way too many hollywood films. The Hastings thing is classic mania for those of us who know people who have experienced that.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  yeah the other issue with these things are that they are unlimited statements and indefinite in length "look this person wrote on twitter 2 years ago that it won't be suicide" hm. a solution I imagined for this was some sort of point cloud emitting off of everyone's body, so we would have a point cloud based rendering of what happened near someone, could reveal a lot about human interactions
- regentbowerbird 3y ago
  But people _do_ die when exposing corruption of the rich. Such as Daphne Caruana Galizia and Ján Kuciak for the Panama papers. Would you call their deaths "hollywood films"? And it'd be natural to think killers would try to hide their traces, such that most such deaths would look like an accident or suicide.
  - asdfgjkl 3y ago
    Just a correction, Kuciak wasn't killed for Panama Papers, but regular investigative journalism into the corruption of the rich (your point still stands).
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    I am more skeptical of the perfect staging to make it look like a suicide theory. Both of those killings were in pseudo-mafioso states. Both were also immediately recognized as murder. State-sanctioned murder of your own citizens on your own soil is a lot less commmon in a country like the US, although there are well as Mafia and organized crime murders. But I think successful staging as a suicide is uncommon outside of Hollywood and repressive governments.
    - squigz 3y ago
      I'm confused - has there been any implication that (if this was a murder) it was "state-sanctioned"?
    - dinkblam 3y ago
      > Both of those killings were in pseudo-mafioso states ugh? there is more law & order in Malta than in the US. been there for nearly a decade and according to Wikipedia [1] the homicide rate in the US is 6.4 while it is 0.4 in Malta. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
  - Bluescreenbuddy 3y ago
    Daphne was exposing corruption long before the Panama Papers. She was already a target.
- lukan 3y ago
  I wouldn't be so sure. I dropped that point of view, after I read about the Lucona incident in europe and all the dirt behind it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucona Which lead me to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio "According to several Western European researchers, the operation involved the use of assassination, psychological warfare, and false flag operations to delegitimize left-wing parties in Western European countries, and even went so far as to support anti-communist militias and right-wing terrorism as they tortured communists and assassinated them" Opened a whole box of pandora for me. So I rather think there is much more dark shit going on, than what makes the news, we just see the tip of the iceberg. And not just about the big players. Probably also common people have way more corpses in their basements, than what you would expect, if you grew up in a safe space. Edit: about Lucona, the wiki page reads quite boring, but the book by the private detective who uncovered it, is quite informative. Casual mentioned details, like that there is a court of the organized crime in london where they settle their cases. Or that the insurance company, who initially hired him to investigate, offered him money in the end, to stop investigating, as he was uncovering up too much dirt.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    Definitely stuff going on that does not make the news, but a lot of people also just commit suicide, swear to their friends and family they wont, and do it anyways. But there is a world of difference between doing this as a small business owner vs. a massive publicly traded company.
    - lukan 3y ago
      True, most things are also much more mundane and boring, than what people would expect. No hidden 5 layers of conspiracy are deployed everywhere. But that now still reminds me of: "A Report on the Banality of Evil" by Hanah Arendt about Eichmann and a holocaust trial.
  - gpderetta 3y ago
    Regarding Gladio, what is wild conspiracy theories anywhere else, in Italy is just a slow Tuesday. Just to get started on the rabbit hole, and somewhat relevant for this thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi
- bitcharmer 3y ago
  The man warned he's not going to commit suicide in case something happens to him and your immediate conclusion is that it was suicide. Interesting line of logic, I have to admit.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    Not in the Michael Hastings case being linked. Also - many, many people commit suicide after saying they never will. if he was shot with his own gun, i think that is much more likely than any other alternative.
- tarsinge 3y ago
  And yet murders happen everyday for dubious reasons. If some party has big incentives in a death then it is a moral duty to suspect that party first. Suicide is a special case (suicide rates are not far from murder rates), it is not the default one. The burden should not be on the family to prove it was not suicide, but on the party who has big to gain it was not them.
iwontberude 3y ago
Also reminds me of ex TYT journalist Michael Brooks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Brooks_(political_commentator) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Brooks_(political_co...

whimsicalism 3y ago

In my view, almost all of these are accidents or suicides and people watch way too many hollywood films. The Hastings thing is classic mania for those of us who know people who have experienced that.

yieldcrv 3y ago
yeah the other issue with these things are that they are unlimited statements and indefinite in length "look this person wrote on twitter 2 years ago that it won't be suicide" hm. a solution I imagined for this was some sort of point cloud emitting off of everyone's body, so we would have a point cloud based rendering of what happened near someone, could reveal a lot about human interactions
regentbowerbird 3y ago
But people _do_ die when exposing corruption of the rich. Such as Daphne Caruana Galizia and Ján Kuciak for the Panama papers. Would you call their deaths "hollywood films"? And it'd be natural to think killers would try to hide their traces, such that most such deaths would look like an accident or suicide.
- asdfgjkl 3y ago
  Just a correction, Kuciak wasn't killed for Panama Papers, but regular investigative journalism into the corruption of the rich (your point still stands).
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  I am more skeptical of the perfect staging to make it look like a suicide theory. Both of those killings were in pseudo-mafioso states. Both were also immediately recognized as murder. State-sanctioned murder of your own citizens on your own soil is a lot less commmon in a country like the US, although there are well as Mafia and organized crime murders. But I think successful staging as a suicide is uncommon outside of Hollywood and repressive governments.
  - squigz 3y ago
    I'm confused - has there been any implication that (if this was a murder) it was "state-sanctioned"?
  - dinkblam 3y ago
    > Both of those killings were in pseudo-mafioso states ugh? there is more law & order in Malta than in the US. been there for nearly a decade and according to Wikipedia [1] the homicide rate in the US is 6.4 while it is 0.4 in Malta. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
- Bluescreenbuddy 3y ago
  Daphne was exposing corruption long before the Panama Papers. She was already a target.
lukan 3y ago
I wouldn't be so sure. I dropped that point of view, after I read about the Lucona incident in europe and all the dirt behind it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucona Which lead me to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio "According to several Western European researchers, the operation involved the use of assassination, psychological warfare, and false flag operations to delegitimize left-wing parties in Western European countries, and even went so far as to support anti-communist militias and right-wing terrorism as they tortured communists and assassinated them" Opened a whole box of pandora for me. So I rather think there is much more dark shit going on, than what makes the news, we just see the tip of the iceberg. And not just about the big players. Probably also common people have way more corpses in their basements, than what you would expect, if you grew up in a safe space. Edit: about Lucona, the wiki page reads quite boring, but the book by the private detective who uncovered it, is quite informative. Casual mentioned details, like that there is a court of the organized crime in london where they settle their cases. Or that the insurance company, who initially hired him to investigate, offered him money in the end, to stop investigating, as he was uncovering up too much dirt.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Definitely stuff going on that does not make the news, but a lot of people also just commit suicide, swear to their friends and family they wont, and do it anyways. But there is a world of difference between doing this as a small business owner vs. a massive publicly traded company.
  - lukan 3y ago
    True, most things are also much more mundane and boring, than what people would expect. No hidden 5 layers of conspiracy are deployed everywhere. But that now still reminds me of: "A Report on the Banality of Evil" by Hanah Arendt about Eichmann and a holocaust trial.
- gpderetta 3y ago
  Regarding Gladio, what is wild conspiracy theories anywhere else, in Italy is just a slow Tuesday. Just to get started on the rabbit hole, and somewhat relevant for this thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi
bitcharmer 3y ago
The man warned he's not going to commit suicide in case something happens to him and your immediate conclusion is that it was suicide. Interesting line of logic, I have to admit.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Not in the Michael Hastings case being linked. Also - many, many people commit suicide after saying they never will. if he was shot with his own gun, i think that is much more likely than any other alternative.
tarsinge 3y ago
And yet murders happen everyday for dubious reasons. If some party has big incentives in a death then it is a moral duty to suspect that party first. Suicide is a special case (suicide rates are not far from murder rates), it is not the default one. The burden should not be on the family to prove it was not suicide, but on the party who has big to gain it was not them.

iwontberude 3y ago

Also reminds me of ex TYT journalist Michael Brooks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Brooks_(political_commentator) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Brooks_(political_co...