4 ms·

> most complete nutritional sources Fat is missing though, and there is no essential need for fiber. And what about vitamines? Water-soluble and fat-soluble v

> most complete nutritional sources Fat is missing though, and there is no essential need for fiber. And what about vitamines? Water-soluble and fat-soluble vitamines? The latter of which are probably totally missing. All of those are found in good meat, however.

raverbashing 3y ago
Fat can be added, as well as vitamin supplementation > there is no essential need for fiber Thinking of food only on its nutritional aspects is reductive From a health point of view, fiber is a necessity
- causi 3y ago
  Thinking of food only on its nutritional aspects is reductive The comment is literally regarding its nutritional aspect. "One of the most complete nutritional sources".
- xenonite 3y ago
  > Thinking of food only on its nutritional aspects is reductive A reductive approach seems to be the problem of artificial meat, in the first place. > From a health point of view, fiber is a necessity If there is a healthy microbiome to digest the fiber, you may want to feed that microbiome with fiber so it stays alive, and even improve the population that way. And I see that fiber can mitigate blood sugar spikes. However, fiber also takes up valuable minerals, prohibiting their uptake. I do not think that the situation is as clear cut as you present it.
  - InSteady 3y ago
    Fiber is essential fuel for all kinds of microbes that produce immune-modulating molecules and neurotransmitter precursors for us. >However, fiber also takes up valuable minerals, prohibiting their uptake. I do not think that the situation is as clear cut as you present it. If this were actually a concern, it would be beneficial to extract all nutrients from whole foods and consume them as a pill (vitamin) instead of eating our nutrition. This has not borne out in extensive research despite billions of dollars invested into developing and marketing nutrient supplements.
- toptearto 3y ago
  [flagged]
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
"no essential need for fiber" Completely wrong. Fiber is critical. I know it is a social norm on HN to provide links. But come on, you can just search and find a hundred studies. At some point, just go read them.
- xenonite 3y ago
  In general, I agree that most literature recommends to maintain fiber in the diet. However, this depends and there is research on diets that reduce dietary fiber. Let me refer you to recent articles in Cell Host & Microbe: https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/abstract/S1931-3128(23)00420-1 https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/abstract/S1931-3128(2... > we found that a fiber-free diet ameliorates colitis by altering the intestinal localization of a specific gut pathobiont that is required to trigger CD-like disease in genetically susceptible mice. Mechanistically, fiber-free diet inhibited the ability of mucin-degrading microbes to supply critical molecules that are required for the metabolism and maintenance of the disease-causing pathobiont in the mucus layer. or in Gastroenterology: https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(23)05306-4/abstract https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(23)05306-4/... > Fiber free exclusive enteral nutrition (EEN) is an effective steroid-sparing treatment used to induce clinical remission in children with Crohn’s disease (CD). I hope it becomes apparent that having fiber is not the solution to everything. Above papers administer fiber-free diets for treatment. Other diets focus on the exclusion of certain fibers, like for example, in the widespread and clinically approved FODMAP diet. Hence, it also depends on the type of fiber.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    There is a big difference between saying "fiber is not the solution to everything" which I never said, and what the OP said which was to recommend no fiber at all, 0%. You are citing studies on specific narrow medical conditions where a limiting of fiber had some impact. Yes, you can probably find narrow medical conditions that would benefit from any diet you want to support. You can find medical conditions that support 100% fat, 100% carb, 100% protein. Those are niche cases with specific needs. That isn't what the general regular human would need. This is like saying, "we've found that in some specific cases, excess water leads to drowning, thus we recommend a water free diet." Maybe not you. But it is really awful how many people are really eating unhealthily based on this kind of miss-interpretations, and in some cases out right marketing manipulation. Yes it is a huge field, and there are a lot of different types of fibers, with hundreds of knock on effects. This is one of those fields where there a lot of variables, it is complex, so super easy to purposely confuse people. To then say, we don't need it? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9511151/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9511151/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29566200/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29566200/ https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/advance-article/doi/10.1093/nutrit/nuad143/7451171 https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/advance-article/do... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561423003631 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026156142... One that is balanced on Pro/Con in different situations https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/13/2641 https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/13/2641 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916522028131 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000291652...

raverbashing 3y ago

Fat can be added, as well as vitamin supplementation > there is no essential need for fiber Thinking of food only on its nutritional aspects is reductive From a health point of view, fiber is a necessity

causi 3y ago
Thinking of food only on its nutritional aspects is reductive The comment is literally regarding its nutritional aspect. "One of the most complete nutritional sources".
xenonite 3y ago
> Thinking of food only on its nutritional aspects is reductive A reductive approach seems to be the problem of artificial meat, in the first place. > From a health point of view, fiber is a necessity If there is a healthy microbiome to digest the fiber, you may want to feed that microbiome with fiber so it stays alive, and even improve the population that way. And I see that fiber can mitigate blood sugar spikes. However, fiber also takes up valuable minerals, prohibiting their uptake. I do not think that the situation is as clear cut as you present it.
- InSteady 3y ago
  Fiber is essential fuel for all kinds of microbes that produce immune-modulating molecules and neurotransmitter precursors for us. >However, fiber also takes up valuable minerals, prohibiting their uptake. I do not think that the situation is as clear cut as you present it. If this were actually a concern, it would be beneficial to extract all nutrients from whole foods and consume them as a pill (vitamin) instead of eating our nutrition. This has not borne out in extensive research despite billions of dollars invested into developing and marketing nutrient supplements.
toptearto 3y ago
[flagged]

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

"no essential need for fiber" Completely wrong. Fiber is critical. I know it is a social norm on HN to provide links. But come on, you can just search and find a hundred studies. At some point, just go read them.

xenonite 3y ago
In general, I agree that most literature recommends to maintain fiber in the diet. However, this depends and there is research on diets that reduce dietary fiber. Let me refer you to recent articles in Cell Host & Microbe: https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/abstract/S1931-3128(23)00420-1 https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/abstract/S1931-3128(2... > we found that a fiber-free diet ameliorates colitis by altering the intestinal localization of a specific gut pathobiont that is required to trigger CD-like disease in genetically susceptible mice. Mechanistically, fiber-free diet inhibited the ability of mucin-degrading microbes to supply critical molecules that are required for the metabolism and maintenance of the disease-causing pathobiont in the mucus layer. or in Gastroenterology: https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(23)05306-4/abstract https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(23)05306-4/... > Fiber free exclusive enteral nutrition (EEN) is an effective steroid-sparing treatment used to induce clinical remission in children with Crohn’s disease (CD). I hope it becomes apparent that having fiber is not the solution to everything. Above papers administer fiber-free diets for treatment. Other diets focus on the exclusion of certain fibers, like for example, in the widespread and clinically approved FODMAP diet. Hence, it also depends on the type of fiber.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  There is a big difference between saying "fiber is not the solution to everything" which I never said, and what the OP said which was to recommend no fiber at all, 0%. You are citing studies on specific narrow medical conditions where a limiting of fiber had some impact. Yes, you can probably find narrow medical conditions that would benefit from any diet you want to support. You can find medical conditions that support 100% fat, 100% carb, 100% protein. Those are niche cases with specific needs. That isn't what the general regular human would need. This is like saying, "we've found that in some specific cases, excess water leads to drowning, thus we recommend a water free diet." Maybe not you. But it is really awful how many people are really eating unhealthily based on this kind of miss-interpretations, and in some cases out right marketing manipulation. Yes it is a huge field, and there are a lot of different types of fibers, with hundreds of knock on effects. This is one of those fields where there a lot of variables, it is complex, so super easy to purposely confuse people. To then say, we don't need it? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9511151/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9511151/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29566200/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29566200/ https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/advance-article/doi/10.1093/nutrit/nuad143/7451171 https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/advance-article/do... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561423003631 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026156142... One that is balanced on Pro/Con in different situations https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/13/2641 https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/13/2641 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916522028131 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000291652...