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> Cyclists here operate in a gray area a mile wide. They are nominally supposed stop at stop signs and red lights, respect pedestrian right of way, signal turns

> Cyclists here operate in a gray area a mile wide. They are nominally supposed stop at stop signs and red lights, respect pedestrian right of way, signal turns, and all that stuff. But virtually none do, and I’ve never seen any consequences. All of the signage and rules were introduced and installed to make driving safe - because, as your anecdote shows, being an idiot on a bike is just not that dangerous. If cars drove at an average of 15mph, weighed 30kg, and had the all-around vision of a cyclist, then you wouldn't need so many rules for their use either.

dmz73 3y ago
Cyclists always have an excuse for not following the rules...until someone else breaks the rule that benefits the cyclist, then it's the end of the world and you get sworn at like you have just tried to murder them. As a pedestrian, I am more afraid of cyclists and scooters than of cars. Cars actually stop and give way to me, cyclists and scooters never do. They block the footpaths and pedestrian crossings, they ride on the footpath (not allowed here), they ride on the wrong side of the road and in the middle of the lane, they ride through red light while pedestrians are crossing in front of them, I have even seen them ride through red light into intersection in front of busses and cars and pretend there was nothing wrong with that expecting other vehicles to stop. People on two wheels are just the most self absorbed inconsiderate a-holes.
- pasabagi 3y ago
  > I am more afraid of cyclists and scooters than of cars. You shouldn't be. Cars are a leading cause of death across the world. The likelyhood of being hit and killed by a cyclist is, I don't know, very small? Nobody even collects statistics on it: it just doesn't happen often enough to register. > like you have just tried to murder them I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that a lot of people, maybe even most people, are just not temperamentally suited to operating heavy machinery in mixed-use public spaces every day. They'll be half asleep, or on the phone, or distracted and daydreaming, and then the visibility in a car just isn't that great, so you don't have good situational awareness. So cyclists get a lot of bottled up anger from all the times a car has knocked them down, or they've come a hair's breadth from death, and the driver is still halfway thinking about what they're going to have for lunch as they drive off, wondering about the cyclist that 'came from nowhere'. You also can't really just follow the rules of the road as a cyclist: if you have right of way, but the car driver doesn't see you, you're still dead. You have to operate under the assumption that cars can't see you even if you're literally right in front of them.
  - anticrymactic 3y ago
    > > like you have just tried to murder them > > I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that a lot of people, maybe even most people, are just not temperamentally suited to operating heavy machinery in mixed-use public spaces every day. Your reply is good and just like to add to it: The mentality of "like you just tried to murder them" is so laughably detached. It's not like they did, they just did. Distracted/Ignorant drivers DO try to kill you. So many (car)people underestimate the real dangers of a self propelled metal wall. I love driving both cars and bikes, but I am also very very aware that a single collision above 10 mph can be lethal. It's not anger about pendantic rule following. It is bottled up frustrations in the face of blatent negligence. Cyclist are shooting nerf blasters while drivers close their eyes while using a machine gun.
- op00to 3y ago
  Getting hit by a motor vehicle will ruin your life. Getting hit by a bicycle will ruin your day, maybe week.
  - faeriechangling 3y ago
    Cyclists are a legitimate danger to the elderly insofar that they can cause them to break their hip which can be a death sentence, and them breaking laws can cause drivers to panic and crash.
  - shermantanktop 3y ago
    Should we rely on the individual’s belief about the level of harm they might cause when deciding whether to enforce the law when they break it?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - everforward 3y ago
    It's not 0 risk; 12 pedestrians were killed by bicyclists in NYC in 2021 (I don't have more up to date data, there doesn't seem to be a ton out there). Cars killed 1,927 pedestrians in the same year. If we make a bold assumption that we can just scale those numbers by volumes, cars would have killed 100 people in the same period of there were as few drivers as bikers. I think cyclists underestimate the difference made by the force focusing effect of landing on a bar as opposed to the roof of a car, as well as that bicycles are basically flat in the front instead of sloped, so people can't slide over the top. If I could pick between getting hit by a Honda Civic at 20 mph or someone on a bike at 20 mph, I'm picking the Civic. Basically any car low enough that I can go over the top of, I'd rather get hit by that than a bike. I would rather get hit by a bike than an F-150, though. There's no way I'm going over that, I would definitely end up under it.
    - pasabagi 3y ago
      I guess if you get hit by a bike (which is pretty unlikely, because bikes are slow and have good visibility), you probably hit it at an angle. So you're likely to get a handlebar hitting you, but there's not going to be much weight behind it, then the bike itself and person on it are going to sort of ragdoll into you, which sucks, but is probably better than getting hit by 2-tons * 15mph force. I mean, I would rather not be hit by either. But I think physics suggests it's probably better to be hit by the lighter object.
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  I’m much more afraid of getting hit by a car than a cyclist because I understand basic physics.
  - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
    You shouldn't be. Both can easily kill you.
shermantanktop 3y ago
In my anecdote, both cyclists had helmets, gloves, and other safety gear. The pedestrians they ride through and around do not. Cyclists operate in the uncanny valley between cars and pedestrians. They have the speed of cars, the mass of pedestrians, and the predictability of a spooked squirrel.
- itishappy 3y ago
  Right. Pedestrians have nothing, bikers have helmets and gloves, and cars have two ton steel frames. They're entirely different threat classes. A better comparison than squirrels might be dogs. A large dog has about the speed, mass, and predictability of a bicycle, and I bet they're regulated similarly as well. You're expected to remain in control of your dog/bike and it takes an egregious infraction to face legal repercussions.
  - shermantanktop 3y ago
    I’m saying something that other people here said. It may not make sense to you, and perhaps it is irrational, but: I spend more time being afraid of cyclists than I do being afraid of cars. The intensity of fear may not be as high, but the frequency is very high. If I see a car, it’s a car. If I see a cyclist zooming toward me, I am looking for what I can do if and when they do something crazy.
    - itishappy 3y ago
      Oh, I'm not suggesting you're wrong to be! I also totally mean my dog example. I think you'd be crazy not to keep a small part of yourself constantly aware of every strange dog you meet. What I am suggesting is that societal effort would be wrong to be. Cars are killing people in ways bikes just aren't.

dmz73 3y ago

Cyclists always have an excuse for not following the rules...until someone else breaks the rule that benefits the cyclist, then it's the end of the world and you get sworn at like you have just tried to murder them. As a pedestrian, I am more afraid of cyclists and scooters than of cars. Cars actually stop and give way to me, cyclists and scooters never do. They block the footpaths and pedestrian crossings, they ride on the footpath (not allowed here), they ride on the wrong side of the road and in the middle of the lane, they ride through red light while pedestrians are crossing in front of them, I have even seen them ride through red light into intersection in front of busses and cars and pretend there was nothing wrong with that expecting other vehicles to stop. People on two wheels are just the most self absorbed inconsiderate a-holes.

pasabagi 3y ago
> I am more afraid of cyclists and scooters than of cars. You shouldn't be. Cars are a leading cause of death across the world. The likelyhood of being hit and killed by a cyclist is, I don't know, very small? Nobody even collects statistics on it: it just doesn't happen often enough to register. > like you have just tried to murder them I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that a lot of people, maybe even most people, are just not temperamentally suited to operating heavy machinery in mixed-use public spaces every day. They'll be half asleep, or on the phone, or distracted and daydreaming, and then the visibility in a car just isn't that great, so you don't have good situational awareness. So cyclists get a lot of bottled up anger from all the times a car has knocked them down, or they've come a hair's breadth from death, and the driver is still halfway thinking about what they're going to have for lunch as they drive off, wondering about the cyclist that 'came from nowhere'. You also can't really just follow the rules of the road as a cyclist: if you have right of way, but the car driver doesn't see you, you're still dead. You have to operate under the assumption that cars can't see you even if you're literally right in front of them.
- anticrymactic 3y ago
  > > like you have just tried to murder them > > I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that a lot of people, maybe even most people, are just not temperamentally suited to operating heavy machinery in mixed-use public spaces every day. Your reply is good and just like to add to it: The mentality of "like you just tried to murder them" is so laughably detached. It's not like they did, they just did. Distracted/Ignorant drivers DO try to kill you. So many (car)people underestimate the real dangers of a self propelled metal wall. I love driving both cars and bikes, but I am also very very aware that a single collision above 10 mph can be lethal. It's not anger about pendantic rule following. It is bottled up frustrations in the face of blatent negligence. Cyclist are shooting nerf blasters while drivers close their eyes while using a machine gun.
op00to 3y ago
Getting hit by a motor vehicle will ruin your life. Getting hit by a bicycle will ruin your day, maybe week.
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  Cyclists are a legitimate danger to the elderly insofar that they can cause them to break their hip which can be a death sentence, and them breaking laws can cause drivers to panic and crash.
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  Should we rely on the individual’s belief about the level of harm they might cause when deciding whether to enforce the law when they break it?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- everforward 3y ago
  It's not 0 risk; 12 pedestrians were killed by bicyclists in NYC in 2021 (I don't have more up to date data, there doesn't seem to be a ton out there). Cars killed 1,927 pedestrians in the same year. If we make a bold assumption that we can just scale those numbers by volumes, cars would have killed 100 people in the same period of there were as few drivers as bikers. I think cyclists underestimate the difference made by the force focusing effect of landing on a bar as opposed to the roof of a car, as well as that bicycles are basically flat in the front instead of sloped, so people can't slide over the top. If I could pick between getting hit by a Honda Civic at 20 mph or someone on a bike at 20 mph, I'm picking the Civic. Basically any car low enough that I can go over the top of, I'd rather get hit by that than a bike. I would rather get hit by a bike than an F-150, though. There's no way I'm going over that, I would definitely end up under it.
  - pasabagi 3y ago
    I guess if you get hit by a bike (which is pretty unlikely, because bikes are slow and have good visibility), you probably hit it at an angle. So you're likely to get a handlebar hitting you, but there's not going to be much weight behind it, then the bike itself and person on it are going to sort of ragdoll into you, which sucks, but is probably better than getting hit by 2-tons * 15mph force. I mean, I would rather not be hit by either. But I think physics suggests it's probably better to be hit by the lighter object.
faeriechangling 3y ago
I’m much more afraid of getting hit by a car than a cyclist because I understand basic physics.
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago
  You shouldn't be. Both can easily kill you.

shermantanktop 3y ago

In my anecdote, both cyclists had helmets, gloves, and other safety gear. The pedestrians they ride through and around do not. Cyclists operate in the uncanny valley between cars and pedestrians. They have the speed of cars, the mass of pedestrians, and the predictability of a spooked squirrel.

itishappy 3y ago
Right. Pedestrians have nothing, bikers have helmets and gloves, and cars have two ton steel frames. They're entirely different threat classes. A better comparison than squirrels might be dogs. A large dog has about the speed, mass, and predictability of a bicycle, and I bet they're regulated similarly as well. You're expected to remain in control of your dog/bike and it takes an egregious infraction to face legal repercussions.
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  I’m saying something that other people here said. It may not make sense to you, and perhaps it is irrational, but: I spend more time being afraid of cyclists than I do being afraid of cars. The intensity of fear may not be as high, but the frequency is very high. If I see a car, it’s a car. If I see a cyclist zooming toward me, I am looking for what I can do if and when they do something crazy.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    Oh, I'm not suggesting you're wrong to be! I also totally mean my dog example. I think you'd be crazy not to keep a small part of yourself constantly aware of every strange dog you meet. What I am suggesting is that societal effort would be wrong to be. Cars are killing people in ways bikes just aren't.