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If they bring that to Seattle, we’re going to need to print a lot of blue tickets. A lot. Cyclists here operate in a gray area a mile wide. They are nominally

If they bring that to Seattle, we’re going to need to print a lot of blue tickets. A lot. Cyclists here operate in a gray area a mile wide. They are nominally supposed stop at stop signs and red lights, respect pedestrian right of way, signal turns, and all that stuff. But virtually none do, and I’ve never seen any consequences. Well, I did witness one karmic consequence where one cyclist t-boned another cyclist as they both sailed through stop signs in SLU, sending the victim flying through the air. Luckily nobody was hurt. Perhaps this gray area is intentional -lax enforcement due to prioritization or even a tacit understanding that cycling needs encouragement, and tickets are a bummer.

matthewbunge 3y ago
Man the number of times while I was at UW that a cyclist just sideswiped me while I was in the middle of a crosswalk instead of just reducing speed momentarily. And they didn't even need to be on the road! Burke-Gilman is right there!
pasabagi 3y ago
> Cyclists here operate in a gray area a mile wide. They are nominally supposed stop at stop signs and red lights, respect pedestrian right of way, signal turns, and all that stuff. But virtually none do, and I’ve never seen any consequences. All of the signage and rules were introduced and installed to make driving safe - because, as your anecdote shows, being an idiot on a bike is just not that dangerous. If cars drove at an average of 15mph, weighed 30kg, and had the all-around vision of a cyclist, then you wouldn't need so many rules for their use either.
- dmz73 3y ago
  Cyclists always have an excuse for not following the rules...until someone else breaks the rule that benefits the cyclist, then it's the end of the world and you get sworn at like you have just tried to murder them. As a pedestrian, I am more afraid of cyclists and scooters than of cars. Cars actually stop and give way to me, cyclists and scooters never do. They block the footpaths and pedestrian crossings, they ride on the footpath (not allowed here), they ride on the wrong side of the road and in the middle of the lane, they ride through red light while pedestrians are crossing in front of them, I have even seen them ride through red light into intersection in front of busses and cars and pretend there was nothing wrong with that expecting other vehicles to stop. People on two wheels are just the most self absorbed inconsiderate a-holes.
  - pasabagi 3y ago
    > I am more afraid of cyclists and scooters than of cars. You shouldn't be. Cars are a leading cause of death across the world. The likelyhood of being hit and killed by a cyclist is, I don't know, very small? Nobody even collects statistics on it: it just doesn't happen often enough to register. > like you have just tried to murder them I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that a lot of people, maybe even most people, are just not temperamentally suited to operating heavy machinery in mixed-use public spaces every day. They'll be half asleep, or on the phone, or distracted and daydreaming, and then the visibility in a car just isn't that great, so you don't have good situational awareness. So cyclists get a lot of bottled up anger from all the times a car has knocked them down, or they've come a hair's breadth from death, and the driver is still halfway thinking about what they're going to have for lunch as they drive off, wondering about the cyclist that 'came from nowhere'. You also can't really just follow the rules of the road as a cyclist: if you have right of way, but the car driver doesn't see you, you're still dead. You have to operate under the assumption that cars can't see you even if you're literally right in front of them.
    - anticrymactic 3y ago
      > > like you have just tried to murder them > > I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that a lot of people, maybe even most people, are just not temperamentally suited to operating heavy machinery in mixed-use public spaces every day. Your reply is good and just like to add to it: The mentality of "like you just tried to murder them" is so laughably detached. It's not like they did, they just did. Distracted/Ignorant drivers DO try to kill you. So many (car)people underestimate the real dangers of a self propelled metal wall. I love driving both cars and bikes, but I am also very very aware that a single collision above 10 mph can be lethal. It's not anger about pendantic rule following. It is bottled up frustrations in the face of blatent negligence. Cyclist are shooting nerf blasters while drivers close their eyes while using a machine gun.
  - op00to 3y ago
    Getting hit by a motor vehicle will ruin your life. Getting hit by a bicycle will ruin your day, maybe week.
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  In my anecdote, both cyclists had helmets, gloves, and other safety gear. The pedestrians they ride through and around do not. Cyclists operate in the uncanny valley between cars and pedestrians. They have the speed of cars, the mass of pedestrians, and the predictability of a spooked squirrel.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    Right. Pedestrians have nothing, bikers have helmets and gloves, and cars have two ton steel frames. They're entirely different threat classes. A better comparison than squirrels might be dogs. A large dog has about the speed, mass, and predictability of a bicycle, and I bet they're regulated similarly as well. You're expected to remain in control of your dog/bike and it takes an egregious infraction to face legal repercussions.
    - shermantanktop 3y ago
      I’m saying something that other people here said. It may not make sense to you, and perhaps it is irrational, but: I spend more time being afraid of cyclists than I do being afraid of cars. The intensity of fear may not be as high, but the frequency is very high. If I see a car, it’s a car. If I see a cyclist zooming toward me, I am looking for what I can do if and when they do something crazy.
      - itishappy 3y ago
        Oh, I'm not suggesting you're wrong to be! I also totally mean my dog example. I think you'd be crazy not to keep a small part of yourself constantly aware of every strange dog you meet. What I am suggesting is that societal effort would be wrong to be. Cars are killing people in ways bikes just aren't.
paholg 3y ago
I've seen drivers do a lot sketchier things than cyclists here.
panick21_ 3y ago
Cars also have bad enforcement with far, far worse consequences. The issue is, policing cyclist when cars murder 100s of people just doesnt make sense. Any $ spent on policing cycling is a $ not spent on a policing cars. And arguable one of the main reasons cyclist behave like they do, is because they fundamentally dont operate in an envoirment that is designed for them. The rules as stated dont actually make sense. What actually need to happen is for the infrastructure to be actually designed will cycling in mind, and with rules that actually make sense for cycling. Forcing stopping at stop signs is objectivly dumb for cyclists, just as an example.
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  How about when they are within 5 feet of a pedestrian about to step into the crosswalk? That one happens to me regularly. The cyclists have eyes only for cars. We pedestrians are treated like NPCs in a game. I kind of understand it —as you describe, it’s a survival strategy. But it’s incredibly antisocial behavior.
ahmedtd 3y ago
In Washington, cyclists can treat stop signs as yield signs, as long as there is no other traffic approaching the intersection. Obviously, though, if you almost hit a pedestrian then you aren't properly yielding.

matthewbunge 3y ago

Man the number of times while I was at UW that a cyclist just sideswiped me while I was in the middle of a crosswalk instead of just reducing speed momentarily. And they didn't even need to be on the road! Burke-Gilman is right there!

pasabagi 3y ago

> Cyclists here operate in a gray area a mile wide. They are nominally supposed stop at stop signs and red lights, respect pedestrian right of way, signal turns, and all that stuff. But virtually none do, and I’ve never seen any consequences. All of the signage and rules were introduced and installed to make driving safe - because, as your anecdote shows, being an idiot on a bike is just not that dangerous. If cars drove at an average of 15mph, weighed 30kg, and had the all-around vision of a cyclist, then you wouldn't need so many rules for their use either.

dmz73 3y ago
Cyclists always have an excuse for not following the rules...until someone else breaks the rule that benefits the cyclist, then it's the end of the world and you get sworn at like you have just tried to murder them. As a pedestrian, I am more afraid of cyclists and scooters than of cars. Cars actually stop and give way to me, cyclists and scooters never do. They block the footpaths and pedestrian crossings, they ride on the footpath (not allowed here), they ride on the wrong side of the road and in the middle of the lane, they ride through red light while pedestrians are crossing in front of them, I have even seen them ride through red light into intersection in front of busses and cars and pretend there was nothing wrong with that expecting other vehicles to stop. People on two wheels are just the most self absorbed inconsiderate a-holes.
- pasabagi 3y ago
  > I am more afraid of cyclists and scooters than of cars. You shouldn't be. Cars are a leading cause of death across the world. The likelyhood of being hit and killed by a cyclist is, I don't know, very small? Nobody even collects statistics on it: it just doesn't happen often enough to register. > like you have just tried to murder them I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that a lot of people, maybe even most people, are just not temperamentally suited to operating heavy machinery in mixed-use public spaces every day. They'll be half asleep, or on the phone, or distracted and daydreaming, and then the visibility in a car just isn't that great, so you don't have good situational awareness. So cyclists get a lot of bottled up anger from all the times a car has knocked them down, or they've come a hair's breadth from death, and the driver is still halfway thinking about what they're going to have for lunch as they drive off, wondering about the cyclist that 'came from nowhere'. You also can't really just follow the rules of the road as a cyclist: if you have right of way, but the car driver doesn't see you, you're still dead. You have to operate under the assumption that cars can't see you even if you're literally right in front of them.
  - anticrymactic 3y ago
    > > like you have just tried to murder them > > I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that a lot of people, maybe even most people, are just not temperamentally suited to operating heavy machinery in mixed-use public spaces every day. Your reply is good and just like to add to it: The mentality of "like you just tried to murder them" is so laughably detached. It's not like they did, they just did. Distracted/Ignorant drivers DO try to kill you. So many (car)people underestimate the real dangers of a self propelled metal wall. I love driving both cars and bikes, but I am also very very aware that a single collision above 10 mph can be lethal. It's not anger about pendantic rule following. It is bottled up frustrations in the face of blatent negligence. Cyclist are shooting nerf blasters while drivers close their eyes while using a machine gun.
- op00to 3y ago
  Getting hit by a motor vehicle will ruin your life. Getting hit by a bicycle will ruin your day, maybe week.
shermantanktop 3y ago
In my anecdote, both cyclists had helmets, gloves, and other safety gear. The pedestrians they ride through and around do not. Cyclists operate in the uncanny valley between cars and pedestrians. They have the speed of cars, the mass of pedestrians, and the predictability of a spooked squirrel.
- itishappy 3y ago
  Right. Pedestrians have nothing, bikers have helmets and gloves, and cars have two ton steel frames. They're entirely different threat classes. A better comparison than squirrels might be dogs. A large dog has about the speed, mass, and predictability of a bicycle, and I bet they're regulated similarly as well. You're expected to remain in control of your dog/bike and it takes an egregious infraction to face legal repercussions.
  - shermantanktop 3y ago
    I’m saying something that other people here said. It may not make sense to you, and perhaps it is irrational, but: I spend more time being afraid of cyclists than I do being afraid of cars. The intensity of fear may not be as high, but the frequency is very high. If I see a car, it’s a car. If I see a cyclist zooming toward me, I am looking for what I can do if and when they do something crazy.
    - itishappy 3y ago
      Oh, I'm not suggesting you're wrong to be! I also totally mean my dog example. I think you'd be crazy not to keep a small part of yourself constantly aware of every strange dog you meet. What I am suggesting is that societal effort would be wrong to be. Cars are killing people in ways bikes just aren't.

paholg 3y ago

I've seen drivers do a lot sketchier things than cyclists here.

panick21_ 3y ago

Cars also have bad enforcement with far, far worse consequences. The issue is, policing cyclist when cars murder 100s of people just doesnt make sense. Any $ spent on policing cycling is a $ not spent on a policing cars. And arguable one of the main reasons cyclist behave like they do, is because they fundamentally dont operate in an envoirment that is designed for them. The rules as stated dont actually make sense. What actually need to happen is for the infrastructure to be actually designed will cycling in mind, and with rules that actually make sense for cycling. Forcing stopping at stop signs is objectivly dumb for cyclists, just as an example.

shermantanktop 3y ago
How about when they are within 5 feet of a pedestrian about to step into the crosswalk? That one happens to me regularly. The cyclists have eyes only for cars. We pedestrians are treated like NPCs in a game. I kind of understand it —as you describe, it’s a survival strategy. But it’s incredibly antisocial behavior.

ahmedtd 3y ago

In Washington, cyclists can treat stop signs as yield signs, as long as there is no other traffic approaching the intersection. Obviously, though, if you almost hit a pedestrian then you aren't properly yielding.