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No, people who own houses in sunny locations save money by legislation that forces the utility to buy power from them at retail prices (“net metering”), and wit

by 7e 3y ago

No, people who own houses in sunny locations save money by legislation that forces the utility to buy power from them at retail prices (“net metering”), and without having to pay for batteries for energy storage. That’s not a DIY solution. Power is sold to the grid at peak sun and bought back later after the sun goes down. In effect, they are using the grid to store power for them, and the utility is losing a lot of money on the transaction. Supplying power after the sun goes down or the wind stops blowing is the expensive part. You don’t believe LCoE, which doesn’t factor in storage costs, is a proper apples-to-apples comparison of renewable energy costs to the consumer. Let’s take the all-in, then, which includes storage/dispatchable sources of energy: have a look at https://www.whatnextnow.com/home/solar/sunmetrix-grid-parity-map-for-residential-solar-energy-in-the-united-states https://www.whatnextnow.com/home/solar/sunmetrix-grid-parity.... Take the $3 per kW solar cost. Now add $6 per kW for two installed Powerwalls to store that energy without relying the grid to bank it with net metering. That’s now $9 per kW, and almost no state is competitive, even with subsidies. The competitive states are those with a lot of sun (and subsidies) but even that number is illusory, because those panels put out so much power one needs to buy even more super-expensive Powerwalls to store all of it to use later.

rstuart4133 3y ago
> No, people who own houses in sunny locations save money by legislation that forces the utility to buy power from them at retail prices (“net metering”), and without having to pay for batteries for energy storage. As a person who owns a house in a sunny location that has solar, I think I can speak with some authority on the matter. Firstly, we've never had net metering here. Secondly, the current price paid for the feed-in you can get has dropped below the average wholesale, in fact it's at $0.05/kWh it close to 1/2 [0]. Thirdly, some retailers limit how much feed in they will pay for (but the take it all, which pisses me off no end). The electricity wholesaler has got legalisation passed that allows them to turn off feed in from household solar at will. [1] Finally, batteries are too expensive to make sense (but that is rapidly changing), and so are currently rare. I don't know why you brought them up. Currently we pay about $0.30 / kWh [0]. We consume about 30 kWh/day. Lets conservatively assume we get 10 kWh self use, and have a system that generates 20 kWh/hr per day. That system will cost around $4,000 here, and will return about $1300 per year power we don't pay for and feed-in. It pays for itself in about 3 years. Those figures are very conservative. In the remainder of its 25 year lifetime, the power it provides is free. Consequently, solar roof top installations are going gang busters here. [3] I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it's wrong. [0] https://b2c-public-website-prod-assets-bucket-name.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/website-assets/energex_tou_power-drive-day.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIA5YXICBYEDYFRSW7K%2F20240315%2Fap-southeast-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240315T065015Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEH8aDmFwLXNvdXRoZWFzdC0yIkgwRgIhAOHCKAFdJYMGLPkHJTL8BLrCgvE4yxH5ah4SxBo%2F%2BioJAiEA83i39Zwz%2FRDqzyUccivKkM8fgg1OI2X2BJNWam%2BkHQMqlQYIiP%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARAAGgw5NDY0NTMyMjA4NzIiDIxYmBRUSi6FLWPi%2BirpBbTZeO%2FOzHoSjTOkxGe1zqfZmI7HQ6baYClgflpEHxnPNS%2B95UnPkqV23Q%2B2MO1xzM6fK2nOnGV7L2aVqGRuCIKPFXQJcKrybRAY0JSCpCgd3fzl0m8c7ERTD76Dzj0VJ7x5aV6JvoAOlMzRuNHbCzAc8Y2avsUX9mvEYqNVhQoY9FZbvTmKACeNoBdIAbx1sKkgW6nX7NFDOcXGISj2b1W1petUMbyfAmX4KCaASmBHvq7GN%2BgsUe%2BSDBPb6jEh1ok8BBLAqGQ7LPQq2a424Wp7d90TZ7D2gOzQeKWkb6UHCkvy6%2F4j81Yk6ltgfx1kexsL2lU8NP4%2FFOQlvnpsv6fMSaQ08dvrB%2FbwkwB9igcAla3%2FxAbRqa0TmoYyww9FGoTsCzFk2qFEDjTk8SQnlE7mavg3YUEJpySuBXFMrgGoezoUgM0oYRvlIvXRp5FJqo08nBf20DcqnqTY1VGN97NWZeMGIcl%2FZ6K6md32GZk0A1%2Bb3LgwQ%2BuILSnZFEftUOleyD1GPvua%2FkGvQdYeO5IMbxyTjxj5lhzBX07BgZb3W1HMQdbu8MYVbdMVDu%2BWu%2Fc13uYFi%2FQId4Tf99JMJgKddt%2FFYTBR3FIklxHHfnHjZB4N%2FTROb822YFusAUq3KNZ1Iv0Dqtp8UU2TWDaIKyO4q%2FvKyYCg7rsQnCAaDx7XovFRhlO1nFzhHwSQnxTSSbsPyyhMQ21buyfil4Aym2QDkh4DdcoE1bOP3jVuQt9Xezer9dlkyI8wSHO0os7Ai%2Fj0%2FQlSlCub37QTCUBJrmmRdBTh0vuH4nsgrIypcoxIpbTZxtj5bVRso4l3c6%2Fn%2FjssTo8U8MJONxZ3Xjn9fAspFqd2Yeclm0Lp4RJcK%2FUdZp1bZVG5ZiKrtDFCngz3JF4RGEXJuMIHkKcnyrn3Yc%2FSDCvCgbi3DQIwbU3%2BN%2BfdCdqIO6nYGip2Rey6MaprKZ2s4fw9Fy7BMTJmO0TKFOTcF38PZV7g7eIwhtjPrwY6qAEcGFjn0jQv0wmvr7kkvrxWgIT2TeN2sT5IhDfhC72J68CPdslZ30O%2Fqs9kxc4IP%2FAd3DDC2MgxFOgnLgCKFaeUmUIVEiXIYb7keMSUHivFwsvMLjn4jMZGLSLmdJP9TP%2Fyvwc8RGSYhDxPi36JQKJDJ8pm7yzLm7%2By3S0V3ADGU8lZ5%2FfaVPDVgHoBd5uNBA5%2B1%2Bjx2%2BTY10vR1uQ4ri5SMMmMlUU%2FAJA%3D&X-Amz-Signature=3c0d7e86d76cf5c6b693fedec8fe78b3e387529c88f9e2386db61d412ecc2ae5&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&x-id=GetObject https://b2c-public-website-prod-assets-bucket-name.s3.ap-sou... [1] https://www.energex.com.au/our-services/connections/residential-and-commercial-connections/solar-connections-and-other-technologies/dynamic-connections-for-energy-exports https://www.energex.com.au/our-services/connections/resident... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/rooftop-solar-cells-in-australia-to-outperform-demand/103489806 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/rooftop-solar-cells-i...
- reaperman 3y ago
  If grid electricity was priced correctly, it would be nearly free per kWh but you'd have an absolutely massive annual fee for being connected to the grid in the first place. The vast majority of the cost of delivering electricity via the grid is one-time Capex and ongoing maintenance. A shockingly tiny % is "marginal cost per kWh". What you're paying for, one way or another, is for "base load" that doesn't fluctuate with weather conditions. The coal/oil power plant might not be needed most of the time, but it still needs to exist because its power is needed occasionally, and it cost billions of dollars to build so they have to get that money back somehow. The problem with charging "correctly" structured rates (huge annual connection fee, tiny per kWh) is that it doesn't encourage any conservation, which will make consumers use ever-higher amounts of energy for exceedingly stupid stuff and thus drive even more Capex. Perhaps the "best" way to charge for grid connection is to look at the single highest peak demand for each user over the past year, and use that to prorate against sum of all costs needed to provide the base load for that peak moment. So you pay for the infrastructure you needed at any point that year, and it encourages people to reduce their reliance on high-capex base load.

by 7e 3y ago

rstuart4133 3y ago

> No, people who own houses in sunny locations save money by legislation that forces the utility to buy power from them at retail prices (“net metering”), and without having to pay for batteries for energy storage. As a person who owns a house in a sunny location that has solar, I think I can speak with some authority on the matter. Firstly, we've never had net metering here. Secondly, the current price paid for the feed-in you can get has dropped below the average wholesale, in fact it's at $0.05/kWh it close to 1/2 [0]. Thirdly, some retailers limit how much feed in they will pay for (but the take it all, which pisses me off no end). The electricity wholesaler has got legalisation passed that allows them to turn off feed in from household solar at will. [1] Finally, batteries are too expensive to make sense (but that is rapidly changing), and so are currently rare. I don't know why you brought them up. Currently we pay about $0.30 / kWh [0]. We consume about 30 kWh/day. Lets conservatively assume we get 10 kWh self use, and have a system that generates 20 kWh/hr per day. That system will cost around $4,000 here, and will return about $1300 per year power we don't pay for and feed-in. It pays for itself in about 3 years. Those figures are very conservative. In the remainder of its 25 year lifetime, the power it provides is free. Consequently, solar roof top installations are going gang busters here. [3] I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it's wrong. [0] https://b2c-public-website-prod-assets-bucket-name.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/website-assets/energex_tou_power-drive-day.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIA5YXICBYEDYFRSW7K%2F20240315%2Fap-southeast-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240315T065015Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEH8aDmFwLXNvdXRoZWFzdC0yIkgwRgIhAOHCKAFdJYMGLPkHJTL8BLrCgvE4yxH5ah4SxBo%2F%2BioJAiEA83i39Zwz%2FRDqzyUccivKkM8fgg1OI2X2BJNWam%2BkHQMqlQYIiP%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARAAGgw5NDY0NTMyMjA4NzIiDIxYmBRUSi6FLWPi%2BirpBbTZeO%2FOzHoSjTOkxGe1zqfZmI7HQ6baYClgflpEHxnPNS%2B95UnPkqV23Q%2B2MO1xzM6fK2nOnGV7L2aVqGRuCIKPFXQJcKrybRAY0JSCpCgd3fzl0m8c7ERTD76Dzj0VJ7x5aV6JvoAOlMzRuNHbCzAc8Y2avsUX9mvEYqNVhQoY9FZbvTmKACeNoBdIAbx1sKkgW6nX7NFDOcXGISj2b1W1petUMbyfAmX4KCaASmBHvq7GN%2BgsUe%2BSDBPb6jEh1ok8BBLAqGQ7LPQq2a424Wp7d90TZ7D2gOzQeKWkb6UHCkvy6%2F4j81Yk6ltgfx1kexsL2lU8NP4%2FFOQlvnpsv6fMSaQ08dvrB%2FbwkwB9igcAla3%2FxAbRqa0TmoYyww9FGoTsCzFk2qFEDjTk8SQnlE7mavg3YUEJpySuBXFMrgGoezoUgM0oYRvlIvXRp5FJqo08nBf20DcqnqTY1VGN97NWZeMGIcl%2FZ6K6md32GZk0A1%2Bb3LgwQ%2BuILSnZFEftUOleyD1GPvua%2FkGvQdYeO5IMbxyTjxj5lhzBX07BgZb3W1HMQdbu8MYVbdMVDu%2BWu%2Fc13uYFi%2FQId4Tf99JMJgKddt%2FFYTBR3FIklxHHfnHjZB4N%2FTROb822YFusAUq3KNZ1Iv0Dqtp8UU2TWDaIKyO4q%2FvKyYCg7rsQnCAaDx7XovFRhlO1nFzhHwSQnxTSSbsPyyhMQ21buyfil4Aym2QDkh4DdcoE1bOP3jVuQt9Xezer9dlkyI8wSHO0os7Ai%2Fj0%2FQlSlCub37QTCUBJrmmRdBTh0vuH4nsgrIypcoxIpbTZxtj5bVRso4l3c6%2Fn%2FjssTo8U8MJONxZ3Xjn9fAspFqd2Yeclm0Lp4RJcK%2FUdZp1bZVG5ZiKrtDFCngz3JF4RGEXJuMIHkKcnyrn3Yc%2FSDCvCgbi3DQIwbU3%2BN%2BfdCdqIO6nYGip2Rey6MaprKZ2s4fw9Fy7BMTJmO0TKFOTcF38PZV7g7eIwhtjPrwY6qAEcGFjn0jQv0wmvr7kkvrxWgIT2TeN2sT5IhDfhC72J68CPdslZ30O%2Fqs9kxc4IP%2FAd3DDC2MgxFOgnLgCKFaeUmUIVEiXIYb7keMSUHivFwsvMLjn4jMZGLSLmdJP9TP%2Fyvwc8RGSYhDxPi36JQKJDJ8pm7yzLm7%2By3S0V3ADGU8lZ5%2FfaVPDVgHoBd5uNBA5%2B1%2Bjx2%2BTY10vR1uQ4ri5SMMmMlUU%2FAJA%3D&X-Amz-Signature=3c0d7e86d76cf5c6b693fedec8fe78b3e387529c88f9e2386db61d412ecc2ae5&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&x-id=GetObject https://b2c-public-website-prod-assets-bucket-name.s3.ap-sou... [1] https://www.energex.com.au/our-services/connections/residential-and-commercial-connections/solar-connections-and-other-technologies/dynamic-connections-for-energy-exports https://www.energex.com.au/our-services/connections/resident... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/rooftop-solar-cells-in-australia-to-outperform-demand/103489806 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/rooftop-solar-cells-i...

reaperman 3y ago
If grid electricity was priced correctly, it would be nearly free per kWh but you'd have an absolutely massive annual fee for being connected to the grid in the first place. The vast majority of the cost of delivering electricity via the grid is one-time Capex and ongoing maintenance. A shockingly tiny % is "marginal cost per kWh". What you're paying for, one way or another, is for "base load" that doesn't fluctuate with weather conditions. The coal/oil power plant might not be needed most of the time, but it still needs to exist because its power is needed occasionally, and it cost billions of dollars to build so they have to get that money back somehow. The problem with charging "correctly" structured rates (huge annual connection fee, tiny per kWh) is that it doesn't encourage any conservation, which will make consumers use ever-higher amounts of energy for exceedingly stupid stuff and thus drive even more Capex. Perhaps the "best" way to charge for grid connection is to look at the single highest peak demand for each user over the past year, and use that to prorate against sum of all costs needed to provide the base load for that peak moment. So you pay for the infrastructure you needed at any point that year, and it encourages people to reduce their reliance on high-capex base load.