4 ms·

The article essentially says--whether this is a good idea or not--that GTK is the one hold-out, which I wasn't really expecting as a punchline; why is GTK not i

by saurik 3y ago

The article essentially says--whether this is a good idea or not--that GTK is the one hold-out, which I wasn't really expecting as a punchline; why is GTK not implementing this?

rcxdude 3y ago
It's a wholly expected punchline to anything wayland: by most accounts Gnome is one of the worst offenders in the death-by-comittee wasteland that is standardising protocols in wayland.
- jchw 3y ago
  As far as I can tell, nobody has filed an issue on Gitlab for wp-cursor-shape, nor posted an MR. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests?search=wp-cursor-shape https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests?search=w... https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/?search=wp-cursor-shape https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/?search=wp-curso... Nothing on Mutter either: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/?search=wp-cursor-shape https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/?search=wp-cu... https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests?search=wp-cursor-shape https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests?searc... It looks like the old GTK mailing lists were moved to Discourse at: https://discourse.gnome.org https://discourse.gnome.org - so I tried searching wp-cursor-shape: https://discourse.gnome.org/search?expanded=true&q=wp-cursor-shape https://discourse.gnome.org/search?expanded=true&q=wp-cursor... Maybe it can be found under other terms of course, but all I'm saying is, before picking up the pitchforks, maybe it'd be worth asking if they'd just accept an MR. Yes, I know many (myself included) are not thrilled with GNOME's approach to Wayland, but it's not going to be any more productive to just assume bad faith, at some point you just gotta push forward.
  - PennRobotics 3y ago
    https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/3276 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/3276 ?
    - jchw 3y ago
      Gah, everyone uses different nomenclature when referring to Wayland protocols. Here's an MR for GTK: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/6212 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/6212 No negative signals for either Mutter or GTK here, but no strong positive signals either. Let's make sure we add our thumbs up, at least.
  - doublepg23 3y ago
    I disagree. If GNOME does anything I personally don’t like it’s usually the result of a grand conspiracy by Red Hat to make the Linux desktop worse, increasing their consulting profits. (/s)
    - DaSHacka 3y ago
      > grand conspiracy by Red Hat to make the Linux desktop worse, increasing their consulting profits. (/s) I must admit, I have wondered about the plausibility of this in the past. It seems like ironically, making a problem-free Linux would be a conflict of interest to Redhat, which makes more money the more problems it has. Is there any particular reason you think it couldn't be the case? I could definitely see it within the realm of possibility, especially since they maintain a huge chunk of the ecosystem nowadays (Fedora/RHEL, GNOME, LibInput, Kernel development, NetworkManager, Pulseaudio/Pipewire, Systemd, Wayland, and probably even more in the future.)
      - panick21_ 3y ago
        Because just factually Red Hat isn't working on many of these things alone. Most of these project have huge interest from many parties. And all those parties work daily with Red Hat and somehow the conspiracy remains undetected. The idea tat Red Hat corporate overlords can easily hurd the Gnome developers just isn't how the project is set up. Many of the contributes to these project, even when being employed by Red Hat don't always do this as their primary job, many do it because they want to. It just so happens many people that love the linux ecosystem and linux itself work at Red Hat. Other then that, many project that are very unifying and don't create much 'conflict' are also lead or worked on by Red Hat people. Pipewire for example has been the opposite of 'conflict' for the most part. LVFS is another good example. Flatpak/Flathub are another great example (Maybe Ubuntu is the evil agent of chaos). Systemd is also almost universally adopted by ever major distro even if it created much conflict. Somehow people can't decide if Red Had is an evil dictator wanting to control everything or if they are deliberately creating 'conflict' so nobody is in control. The simple reality is, there are a huge amount of people with incredibly different opinions in the Linux space. Even different people employed by Red Hat also don't always agree with each other. So who is really the true Red Hat conspiracy agent? Difference on opinion is fine as long as people work on their own stuff, but when it comes to unification, like Wayland protocols it just gets really hard. The reason there is KDE and Gnome is because of fundamental disagreements about goals and that will be reflected in how they think wayland properties should be installed. P.S: > making a problem-free Linux would be a conflict of interest to Redhat, which makes more money the more problems it has. What is your actual evidence for this statement? If that was true, why are they working on all those projects. Objectively things like Pipewire, LVFS, Flatpak, Systemd have been major improvements to the ecosystem.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    > As far as I can tell, nobody has filed an issue on Gitlab for wp-cursor-shape, nor posted an MR. This is just because people do not use Wayland. But, like in the case of SystemD, it seems to be pushed behind their backs.
    - jchw 3y ago
      (I am using Wayland right now while posting this. Also, there was an MR for GTK4 for months, as it turns out.)
vundercind 3y ago
Gnome and Wayland (among other things) are the way they are, in part, to make running anything other than a standard-package-selection Red Hat unappealing to folks who might pay for Linux (enterprise). It’s good for them if their stuff’s a bit broken if you use other distros, or configs/software they don’t want to support, and if they cause integration pain and extra work for other distros. Or if that’s not the reason, the behaviors of a lot of projects RH birthed or heavily influence make a whole lot more sense if you assume it is and are fairly lacking in explanation otherwise. If it’s not the case, they’ve managed to accidentally do something that’s in their interest, I guess.
- lupusreal 3y ago
  I think it's just a standard corporate insularness. Devs being paid to work on the software by the corporation view outsiders as a nuisance and certainly don't like outsiders giving them more work to do. They'd rather find justifications to remove features reinvent old systems to "reduce legacy cruft" (make their jobs easier.). Basically, it all makes sense if you assume standard commercial developer motivations.
  - yxhuvud 3y ago
    Or even better - remove features and then let someone else implement them.
    - traverseda 3y ago
      Or remove features and don't let someone else implement them because you don't want to add in any configuration options.
      - tmtvl 3y ago
        Fornunately with Free software that doesn't matter too much because anyone can add a feature and if you don't want to accept it people can go to the other person's implementation instead. I mean, isn't that how Cinnamon and Panteon and Unity and Cosmic and MATE were born?
zamalek 3y ago
> that GTK is the one hold-out, which I wasn't really expecting Gnome are consistently the hold-out, and are the source of much drama and chagrin in Wayland.
thayne 3y ago
That isn't really surprising to anyone who has been following how GNOME approaches wayland. GNOME is also the one holdout that doesn't support server-side rendering of window decorations (like the title bar with buttons to close and minimize). GNOME has pushed back on several wayland protocol extensions that all the other compositors supported.
- krupan 3y ago
  What else even uses Wayland? Sway?
  - thayne 3y ago
    Sway, KDE, a handful of other compositors based on wlroots.
    - codewiz 3y ago
      And Hyprland, where hyprcursor and the wp_cursor_shape protocol was developed.
- vetinari 3y ago
  They did that for a reason. Rendering decorations server-side is a really bad idea. Just because X11 did it is not a reason to repeat the mistake. If other compositors want to do it, they have their optional extension for that. Eventually, they will find out why they shouldn't do it. With mandatory extension, there would be no way back, with optional, there is.
  - rcxdude 3y ago
    I've yet to see a good argument for why it's a bad idea. To me client-side decorations are mostly yet another way that the desktop is turning into a cluttered mess of different UI styles.
    - vetinari 3y ago

by saurik 3y ago

The article essentially says--whether this is a good idea or not--that GTK is the one hold-out, which I wasn't really expecting as a punchline; why is GTK not implementing this?

rcxdude 3y ago

It's a wholly expected punchline to anything wayland: by most accounts Gnome is one of the worst offenders in the death-by-comittee wasteland that is standardising protocols in wayland.

jchw 3y ago
As far as I can tell, nobody has filed an issue on Gitlab for wp-cursor-shape, nor posted an MR. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests?search=wp-cursor-shape https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests?search=w... https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/?search=wp-cursor-shape https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/?search=wp-curso... Nothing on Mutter either: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/?search=wp-cursor-shape https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/?search=wp-cu... https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests?search=wp-cursor-shape https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests?searc... It looks like the old GTK mailing lists were moved to Discourse at: https://discourse.gnome.org https://discourse.gnome.org - so I tried searching wp-cursor-shape: https://discourse.gnome.org/search?expanded=true&q=wp-cursor-shape https://discourse.gnome.org/search?expanded=true&q=wp-cursor... Maybe it can be found under other terms of course, but all I'm saying is, before picking up the pitchforks, maybe it'd be worth asking if they'd just accept an MR. Yes, I know many (myself included) are not thrilled with GNOME's approach to Wayland, but it's not going to be any more productive to just assume bad faith, at some point you just gotta push forward.
- PennRobotics 3y ago
  https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/3276 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/3276 ?
  - jchw 3y ago
    Gah, everyone uses different nomenclature when referring to Wayland protocols. Here's an MR for GTK: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/6212 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/6212 No negative signals for either Mutter or GTK here, but no strong positive signals either. Let's make sure we add our thumbs up, at least.
- doublepg23 3y ago
  I disagree. If GNOME does anything I personally don’t like it’s usually the result of a grand conspiracy by Red Hat to make the Linux desktop worse, increasing their consulting profits. (/s)
  - DaSHacka 3y ago
    > grand conspiracy by Red Hat to make the Linux desktop worse, increasing their consulting profits. (/s) I must admit, I have wondered about the plausibility of this in the past. It seems like ironically, making a problem-free Linux would be a conflict of interest to Redhat, which makes more money the more problems it has. Is there any particular reason you think it couldn't be the case? I could definitely see it within the realm of possibility, especially since they maintain a huge chunk of the ecosystem nowadays (Fedora/RHEL, GNOME, LibInput, Kernel development, NetworkManager, Pulseaudio/Pipewire, Systemd, Wayland, and probably even more in the future.)
    - panick21_ 3y ago
      Because just factually Red Hat isn't working on many of these things alone. Most of these project have huge interest from many parties. And all those parties work daily with Red Hat and somehow the conspiracy remains undetected. The idea tat Red Hat corporate overlords can easily hurd the Gnome developers just isn't how the project is set up. Many of the contributes to these project, even when being employed by Red Hat don't always do this as their primary job, many do it because they want to. It just so happens many people that love the linux ecosystem and linux itself work at Red Hat. Other then that, many project that are very unifying and don't create much 'conflict' are also lead or worked on by Red Hat people. Pipewire for example has been the opposite of 'conflict' for the most part. LVFS is another good example. Flatpak/Flathub are another great example (Maybe Ubuntu is the evil agent of chaos). Systemd is also almost universally adopted by ever major distro even if it created much conflict. Somehow people can't decide if Red Had is an evil dictator wanting to control everything or if they are deliberately creating 'conflict' so nobody is in control. The simple reality is, there are a huge amount of people with incredibly different opinions in the Linux space. Even different people employed by Red Hat also don't always agree with each other. So who is really the true Red Hat conspiracy agent? Difference on opinion is fine as long as people work on their own stuff, but when it comes to unification, like Wayland protocols it just gets really hard. The reason there is KDE and Gnome is because of fundamental disagreements about goals and that will be reflected in how they think wayland properties should be installed. P.S: > making a problem-free Linux would be a conflict of interest to Redhat, which makes more money the more problems it has. What is your actual evidence for this statement? If that was true, why are they working on all those projects. Objectively things like Pipewire, LVFS, Flatpak, Systemd have been major improvements to the ecosystem.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > As far as I can tell, nobody has filed an issue on Gitlab for wp-cursor-shape, nor posted an MR. This is just because people do not use Wayland. But, like in the case of SystemD, it seems to be pushed behind their backs.
  - jchw 3y ago
    (I am using Wayland right now while posting this. Also, there was an MR for GTK4 for months, as it turns out.)

vundercind 3y ago

Gnome and Wayland (among other things) are the way they are, in part, to make running anything other than a standard-package-selection Red Hat unappealing to folks who might pay for Linux (enterprise). It’s good for them if their stuff’s a bit broken if you use other distros, or configs/software they don’t want to support, and if they cause integration pain and extra work for other distros. Or if that’s not the reason, the behaviors of a lot of projects RH birthed or heavily influence make a whole lot more sense if you assume it is and are fairly lacking in explanation otherwise. If it’s not the case, they’ve managed to accidentally do something that’s in their interest, I guess.

lupusreal 3y ago
I think it's just a standard corporate insularness. Devs being paid to work on the software by the corporation view outsiders as a nuisance and certainly don't like outsiders giving them more work to do. They'd rather find justifications to remove features reinvent old systems to "reduce legacy cruft" (make their jobs easier.). Basically, it all makes sense if you assume standard commercial developer motivations.
- yxhuvud 3y ago
  Or even better - remove features and then let someone else implement them.
  - traverseda 3y ago
    Or remove features and don't let someone else implement them because you don't want to add in any configuration options.
    - tmtvl 3y ago
      Fornunately with Free software that doesn't matter too much because anyone can add a feature and if you don't want to accept it people can go to the other person's implementation instead. I mean, isn't that how Cinnamon and Panteon and Unity and Cosmic and MATE were born?

zamalek 3y ago

> that GTK is the one hold-out, which I wasn't really expecting Gnome are consistently the hold-out, and are the source of much drama and chagrin in Wayland.

thayne 3y ago

That isn't really surprising to anyone who has been following how GNOME approaches wayland. GNOME is also the one holdout that doesn't support server-side rendering of window decorations (like the title bar with buttons to close and minimize). GNOME has pushed back on several wayland protocol extensions that all the other compositors supported.

krupan 3y ago
What else even uses Wayland? Sway?
- thayne 3y ago
  Sway, KDE, a handful of other compositors based on wlroots.
  - codewiz 3y ago
    And Hyprland, where hyprcursor and the wp_cursor_shape protocol was developed.
vetinari 3y ago
They did that for a reason. Rendering decorations server-side is a really bad idea. Just because X11 did it is not a reason to repeat the mistake. If other compositors want to do it, they have their optional extension for that. Eventually, they will find out why they shouldn't do it. With mandatory extension, there would be no way back, with optional, there is.
- rcxdude 3y ago
  I've yet to see a good argument for why it's a bad idea. To me client-side decorations are mostly yet another way that the desktop is turning into a cluttered mess of different UI styles.
  - vetinari 3y ago