5 ms·

Brave, Firefox, Vivaldi Surge on iOS Due to Europe's Digital Markets Act

56 points by botanical 3y ago

fransje26 3y ago
"Thanks to Europe's DMA", not "Due to"..
kmlx 3y ago
> "We are still reviewing the technical details but are extremely disappointed with Apple's proposed plan to restrict the newly-announced BrowserEngineKit to EU-specific apps," Mozilla's spokesperson lamented. "The effect of this would be to force an independent browser like Firefox to build and maintain two separate browser implementations – a burden Apple itself will not have to bear. isn't apple in the same position when it comes to the OS, being forced to have one version in the EU and one for the rest of the world? and isn't this problem more costly than keeping two separate browsers?
- tomalbrc 3y ago
  Apple can use the EU version for the rest of the world.
  - kmlx 3y ago
    and mozilla can use the same firefox version that they use in RoW in the EU.
    - zamadatix 3y ago
      A difference being whether Apple does or doesn't Apple still gets to maintain 1 version of their unrestricted browser either way whereas if Mozilla does or doesn't it either has to maintain 1 version of their unrestricted browser and 1 version of their restrictor browser or 1 version of their restricted browser. I.e. your proposed situation is a bit of a "have your cake and eat it too" for Apple. A possibility sure, but not really an equivalent remark.
  - cactusplant7374 3y ago
    Why would they do that if they don't have to though? Safari will lose even market share.
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  Firefox doesn't make an OS anymore, let alone one for iPhones. They're strictly referring to safari, the browser (labelled gatekeeper) that they are competing with. There's plenty of other stuff apple does that costs more money, but none of that is relevant to competition in the browser space.
  - kmlx 3y ago
    why treat this small part (browsers) separate from the rest? are browsers not running inside an OS that runs on hardware? > (labelled gatekeeper) with just 20% of the market. pretty incredibile imo.
    - zamadatix 3y ago
      It's only incredible when you look at the percentage alone because it sounds like for every 1 unit of control they must have 4 units of wild west alternative. In reality it was for every 1 unit of control they have someone else has 4 units of control and together there was 100% gatekeeping.
- SllX 3y ago
  Not really. Apple had to build out the system of entitlements and new APIs for the EU but the segregation goes through the App Store and Developer Program which run on policy, not code. It’s not that the EU version of Firefox wouldn’t work on my American iPhone with its American Apple ID, Apple just won’t let Mozilla distribute it to me. There shouldn’t be a problem under the law though. EU laws apply to the EU’s jurisdiction, the EC would have no leg to stand on in telling Apple they have to make all the same changes worldwide just to make Mozilla’s life easier.
__rito__ 3y ago
What are "browser choice screens"? When you click on a link from, say, a text message, you are shown the icons of the installed browsers, tapping upon one of which- the link opens on that one. Is that it? Or is it something else? Android has this where I live (India).
- latexr 3y ago
  After installing iOS 17.4 in the EU you’re presented with a list of a bunch of web browsers, including Safari, and asked to pick which one you want to use as the default.
  - tomhallett 3y ago
    When I was setting up my mother in law’s HP, her windows machine gave me a choice screen for the browser, but they littered it with dark patterns. It gave repeated warnings, would ask me to confirm that I wanted chrome, and then (accidentally?) kept switching the default back to Microsoft Edge. I really hope the EU puts enforcement teeth into these agreements, where the actual UX is pro-consumer when they choose the non-default.
  - brnt 3y ago
    Actually, I didnt. Is this something my company might've disabled?
dantyti 3y ago
Even as a webkit browser, I see Firefox Focus as the best browser on iOS. Great for people like me who want to avoid having 100s of tabs that I never get to revisit, and it has some free ad blocking.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  Unfortunately, Mozilla appears to have stopped development of Firefox Focus a few years ago.
mediumsmart 3y ago
I went for zero telemetry and least battery drain which left Orion as last browser standing. Kagi is the default search engine and done. I am also defending ever users right to install whichever adtracking doomscroller blows back their hair, goes without saying really in the best democracy money can buy.

56 points by botanical 3y ago

"Thanks to Europe's DMA", not "Due to"..

kmlx 3y ago

> "We are still reviewing the technical details but are extremely disappointed with Apple's proposed plan to restrict the newly-announced BrowserEngineKit to EU-specific apps," Mozilla's spokesperson lamented. "The effect of this would be to force an independent browser like Firefox to build and maintain two separate browser implementations – a burden Apple itself will not have to bear. isn't apple in the same position when it comes to the OS, being forced to have one version in the EU and one for the rest of the world? and isn't this problem more costly than keeping two separate browsers?

tomalbrc 3y ago
Apple can use the EU version for the rest of the world.
- kmlx 3y ago
  and mozilla can use the same firefox version that they use in RoW in the EU.
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    A difference being whether Apple does or doesn't Apple still gets to maintain 1 version of their unrestricted browser either way whereas if Mozilla does or doesn't it either has to maintain 1 version of their unrestricted browser and 1 version of their restrictor browser or 1 version of their restricted browser. I.e. your proposed situation is a bit of a "have your cake and eat it too" for Apple. A possibility sure, but not really an equivalent remark.
- cactusplant7374 3y ago
  Why would they do that if they don't have to though? Safari will lose even market share.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
Firefox doesn't make an OS anymore, let alone one for iPhones. They're strictly referring to safari, the browser (labelled gatekeeper) that they are competing with. There's plenty of other stuff apple does that costs more money, but none of that is relevant to competition in the browser space.
- kmlx 3y ago
  why treat this small part (browsers) separate from the rest? are browsers not running inside an OS that runs on hardware? > (labelled gatekeeper) with just 20% of the market. pretty incredibile imo.
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    It's only incredible when you look at the percentage alone because it sounds like for every 1 unit of control they must have 4 units of wild west alternative. In reality it was for every 1 unit of control they have someone else has 4 units of control and together there was 100% gatekeeping.
SllX 3y ago
Not really. Apple had to build out the system of entitlements and new APIs for the EU but the segregation goes through the App Store and Developer Program which run on policy, not code. It’s not that the EU version of Firefox wouldn’t work on my American iPhone with its American Apple ID, Apple just won’t let Mozilla distribute it to me. There shouldn’t be a problem under the law though. EU laws apply to the EU’s jurisdiction, the EC would have no leg to stand on in telling Apple they have to make all the same changes worldwide just to make Mozilla’s life easier.

__rito__ 3y ago

What are "browser choice screens"? When you click on a link from, say, a text message, you are shown the icons of the installed browsers, tapping upon one of which- the link opens on that one. Is that it? Or is it something else? Android has this where I live (India).

latexr 3y ago
After installing iOS 17.4 in the EU you’re presented with a list of a bunch of web browsers, including Safari, and asked to pick which one you want to use as the default.
- tomhallett 3y ago
  When I was setting up my mother in law’s HP, her windows machine gave me a choice screen for the browser, but they littered it with dark patterns. It gave repeated warnings, would ask me to confirm that I wanted chrome, and then (accidentally?) kept switching the default back to Microsoft Edge. I really hope the EU puts enforcement teeth into these agreements, where the actual UX is pro-consumer when they choose the non-default.
- brnt 3y ago
  Actually, I didnt. Is this something my company might've disabled?

dantyti 3y ago

Even as a webkit browser, I see Firefox Focus as the best browser on iOS. Great for people like me who want to avoid having 100s of tabs that I never get to revisit, and it has some free ad blocking.

CharlesW 3y ago
Unfortunately, Mozilla appears to have stopped development of Firefox Focus a few years ago.

mediumsmart 3y ago

I went for zero telemetry and least battery drain which left Orion as last browser standing. Kagi is the default search engine and done. I am also defending ever users right to install whichever adtracking doomscroller blows back their hair, goes without saying really in the best democracy money can buy.