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Batteries are not a solution, and probably never will be. If you buy and install a Tesla Powerwall, it will cost you $11,500 to store $1.65 worth of electricity

by 7e 3y ago

Batteries are not a solution, and probably never will be. If you buy and install a Tesla Powerwall, it will cost you $11,500 to store $1.65 worth of electricity. It’s literally ~ten thousand times more expansive than the energy is worth. It’s practical to time shift for a few hours at most. The world needs much cheaper energy storage: compressed air, pumped hydro, and hydrogen electrolysis.

_aavaa_ 3y ago
That’s a rather strong claim against batteries given that they are already being used to large degrees in the power grid. And that they can fill the niche of very rapid response times, unlike the other listed options. As is placing hydrogen in the cheap category.
- 7e 3y ago
  Like I said, batteries are practical for time shifting a few hours, becauses you can amortize the cost over twenty years and only double the cost of the power, and that is exactly where they are used in grid. https://about.bnef.com/blog/2023-hydrogen-levelized-cost-update-green-beats-gray/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/2023-hydrogen-levelized-cost-upd... puts cheapest green hydrogen LCoE at $1.50/kg. Hydrogen is scalable to store for long periods in salt caverns and large tanks.
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    First off, the 1.50 $/kg is the levelized cost of hydrogen not of energy. I can't get access to their full report, so I will have to assume their used a similar approach as [0], numbers are old since it's from 2021 but the analysis hold. LCoH is what the H2 costs as soon as it leaves the electrolyzer. That analysis looks only at electricity and CAPEX and OPEX for the electrolyzers. What is does NOT include is compression, drying, transmission, distribution, or storage. Specifically for this discussion it also does not include any of the costs associated with the fuel cell portion of the stack, i.e. the entire other half of a electricity->hydrogen->electricity scheme. So that will increase costs substantially. The other comment is about the 1.50 $/kg. That is a ridiculously low number. H2 LHV is 33.3 kWh/kg, assuming an optimistic 70% electrolyzer efficiency you need 47.6 kWh/kg of electricty. 1.50 $/kg / 47.6 kWh/kg is ~0.03 $/kWh. And that's if all the cost comes from electricty. Again you still need capex and opex for the electrolyzer. This is the same electricity price as the Lazards reported I linked. That report assumes you'll have the green electricity available 98% of the time. I have no idea where in the world they're going to get such low prices 24/7 on a market once they add the GW worth of demand. Yes certain regions have negative electricity rates, for a few hours a day, but those caused by the mix of renewables and coal/gas/nuclear, and it's the latter which is why costs are negative. I don't think you can count that as green energy, unless it's the nuclear asset that's running. [0]: https://www.lazard.com/media/12qcxl1j/lazards-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen-analysis-vf.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/12qcxl1j/lazards-levelized-cost...
deleted 3y ago
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owisd 3y ago
Seems like an odd comparison to make rather than looking at the value of the electricity * total throughput over the life of the product. Tesla Powerwall would break even within the warranty period. Pumped storage has a similar number of charge/discharge cycles before it would break even, it’s just cheaper because it lasts longer.

by 7e 3y ago

_aavaa_ 3y ago

That’s a rather strong claim against batteries given that they are already being used to large degrees in the power grid. And that they can fill the niche of very rapid response times, unlike the other listed options. As is placing hydrogen in the cheap category.

7e 3y ago
Like I said, batteries are practical for time shifting a few hours, becauses you can amortize the cost over twenty years and only double the cost of the power, and that is exactly where they are used in grid. https://about.bnef.com/blog/2023-hydrogen-levelized-cost-update-green-beats-gray/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/2023-hydrogen-levelized-cost-upd... puts cheapest green hydrogen LCoE at $1.50/kg. Hydrogen is scalable to store for long periods in salt caverns and large tanks.
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  First off, the 1.50 $/kg is the levelized cost of hydrogen not of energy. I can't get access to their full report, so I will have to assume their used a similar approach as [0], numbers are old since it's from 2021 but the analysis hold. LCoH is what the H2 costs as soon as it leaves the electrolyzer. That analysis looks only at electricity and CAPEX and OPEX for the electrolyzers. What is does NOT include is compression, drying, transmission, distribution, or storage. Specifically for this discussion it also does not include any of the costs associated with the fuel cell portion of the stack, i.e. the entire other half of a electricity->hydrogen->electricity scheme. So that will increase costs substantially. The other comment is about the 1.50 $/kg. That is a ridiculously low number. H2 LHV is 33.3 kWh/kg, assuming an optimistic 70% electrolyzer efficiency you need 47.6 kWh/kg of electricty. 1.50 $/kg / 47.6 kWh/kg is ~0.03 $/kWh. And that's if all the cost comes from electricty. Again you still need capex and opex for the electrolyzer. This is the same electricity price as the Lazards reported I linked. That report assumes you'll have the green electricity available 98% of the time. I have no idea where in the world they're going to get such low prices 24/7 on a market once they add the GW worth of demand. Yes certain regions have negative electricity rates, for a few hours a day, but those caused by the mix of renewables and coal/gas/nuclear, and it's the latter which is why costs are negative. I don't think you can count that as green energy, unless it's the nuclear asset that's running. [0]: https://www.lazard.com/media/12qcxl1j/lazards-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen-analysis-vf.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/12qcxl1j/lazards-levelized-cost...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

owisd 3y ago

Seems like an odd comparison to make rather than looking at the value of the electricity * total throughput over the life of the product. Tesla Powerwall would break even within the warranty period. Pumped storage has a similar number of charge/discharge cycles before it would break even, it’s just cheaper because it lasts longer.