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Citation please. According to this report, grid solar is 3-5x cheaper than residential solar (LCoE): https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/04/14/average-solar-lcoe-i

by 7e 3y ago

Citation please. According to this report, grid solar is 3-5x cheaper than residential solar (LCoE): https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/04/14/average-solar-lcoe-increases-for-first-time-this-year/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/04/14/average-solar-lcoe-in... Solar and wind power is also not dispatchable, so one needs to add storage costs to the off-grid solution. Most people saving money buying solar are taking advantage of net metering legislation which forces the utility to buy their power at retail price (above wholesale cost). They use the grid to store electricity for them for use after the sun goes down, without paying for the cost of their own batteries. That’s not DIY. It’s taking advantage of a grid subsidy.

_aavaa_ 3y ago
Levelized costs refer to the costs the owner of the asset has to pay. For grid solar that’s liekly the utility company, but it’s definitely not you. For your own solar you’re the owner. It’s the minimum breakeven sell price for the owner. except you don’t pay the utilities that price. You are also charge, at a minimum, transmission and distribution fees. Further, the grid isn’t 100% solar and electricity prices are dictated by a variety of factors, lcoe being an estimate for the floor of each asset.
rstuart4133 3y ago
The OP didn't mention LCoE. The comparison was based on quote "the price they pay for power from the grid". That price includes transmission overhead, retail markup and government charges, all of which the "individual" who installs their own power plant avoids. And he's usually right, although I'm not so sure of the "dramatic" bit. It's why people who own their own houses in a sunny location save money by installing solar.
- 7e 3y ago
  No, people who own houses in sunny locations save money by legislation that forces the utility to buy power from them at retail prices (“net metering”), and without having to pay for batteries for energy storage. That’s not a DIY solution. Power is sold to the grid at peak sun and bought back later after the sun goes down. In effect, they are using the grid to store power for them, and the utility is losing a lot of money on the transaction. Supplying power after the sun goes down or the wind stops blowing is the expensive part. You don’t believe LCoE, which doesn’t factor in storage costs, is a proper apples-to-apples comparison of renewable energy costs to the consumer. Let’s take the all-in, then, which includes storage/dispatchable sources of energy: have a look at https://www.whatnextnow.com/home/solar/sunmetrix-grid-parity-map-for-residential-solar-energy-in-the-united-states https://www.whatnextnow.com/home/solar/sunmetrix-grid-parity.... Take the $3 per kW solar cost. Now add $6 per kW for two installed Powerwalls to store that energy without relying the grid to bank it with net metering. That’s now $9 per kW, and almost no state is competitive, even with subsidies. The competitive states are those with a lot of sun (and subsidies) but even that number is illusory, because those panels put out so much power one needs to buy even more super-expensive Powerwalls to store all of it to use later.
  - rstuart4133 3y ago
    > No, people who own houses in sunny locations save money by legislation that forces the utility to buy power from them at retail prices (“net metering”), and without having to pay for batteries for energy storage. As a person who owns a house in a sunny location that has solar, I think I can speak with some authority on the matter. Firstly, we've never had net metering here. Secondly, the current price paid for the feed-in you can get has dropped below the average wholesale, in fact it's at $0.05/kWh it close to 1/2 [0]. Thirdly, some retailers limit how much feed in they will pay for (but the take it all, which pisses me off no end). The electricity wholesaler has got legalisation passed that allows them to turn off feed in from household solar at will. [1] Finally, batteries are too expensive to make sense (but that is rapidly changing), and so are currently rare. I don't know why you brought them up. Currently we pay about $0.30 / kWh [0]. We consume about 30 kWh/day. Lets conservatively assume we get 10 kWh self use, and have a system that generates 20 kWh/hr per day. That system will cost around $4,000 here, and will return about $1300 per year power we don't pay for and feed-in. It pays for itself in about 3 years. Those figures are very conservative. In the remainder of its 25 year lifetime, the power it provides is free. Consequently, solar roof top installations are going gang busters here. [3] I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it's wrong. [0] https://b2c-public-website-prod-assets-bucket-name.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/website-assets/energex_tou_power-drive-day.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIA5YXICBYEDYFRSW7K%2F20240315%2Fap-southeast-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240315T065015Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEH8aDmFwLXNvdXRoZWFzdC0yIkgwRgIhAOHCKAFdJYMGLPkHJTL8BLrCgvE4yxH5ah4SxBo%2F%2BioJAiEA83i39Zwz%2FRDqzyUccivKkM8fgg1OI2X2BJNWam%2BkHQMqlQYIiP%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARAAGgw5NDY0NTMyMjA4NzIiDIxYmBRUSi6FLWPi%2BirpBbTZeO%2FOzHoSjTOkxGe1zqfZmI7HQ6baYClgflpEHxnPNS%2B95UnPkqV23Q%2B2MO1xzM6fK2nOnGV7L2aVqGRuCIKPFXQJcKrybRAY0JSCpCgd3fzl0m8c7ERTD76Dzj0VJ7x5aV6JvoAOlMzRuNHbCzAc8Y2avsUX9mvEYqNVhQoY9FZbvTmKACeNoBdIAbx1sKkgW6nX7NFDOcXGISj2b1W1petUMbyfAmX4KCaASmBHvq7GN%2BgsUe%2BSDBPb6jEh1ok8BBLAqGQ7LPQq2a424Wp7d90TZ7D2gOzQeKWkb6UHCkvy6%2F4j81Yk6ltgfx1kexsL2lU8NP4%2FFOQlvnpsv6fMSaQ08dvrB%2FbwkwB9igcAla3%2FxAbRqa0TmoYyww9FGoTsCzFk2qFEDjTk8SQnlE7mavg3YUEJpySuBXFMrgGoezoUgM0oYRvlIvXRp5FJqo08nBf20DcqnqTY1VGN97NWZeMGIcl%2FZ6K6md32GZk0A1%2Bb3LgwQ%2BuILSnZFEftUOleyD1GPvua%2FkGvQdYeO5IMbxyTjxj5lhzBX07BgZb3W1HMQdbu8MYVbdMVDu%2BWu%2Fc13uYFi%2FQId4Tf99JMJgKddt%2FFYTBR3FIklxHHfnHjZB4N%2FTROb822YFusAUq3KNZ1Iv0Dqtp8UU2TWDaIKyO4q%2FvKyYCg7rsQnCAaDx7XovFRhlO1nFzhHwSQnxTSSbsPyyhMQ21buyfil4Aym2QDkh4DdcoE1bOP3jVuQt9Xezer9dlkyI8wSHO0os7Ai%2Fj0%2FQlSlCub37QTCUBJrmmRdBTh0vuH4nsgrIypcoxIpbTZxtj5bVRso4l3c6%2Fn%2FjssTo8U8MJONxZ3Xjn9fAspFqd2Yeclm0Lp4RJcK%2FUdZp1bZVG5ZiKrtDFCngz3JF4RGEXJuMIHkKcnyrn3Yc%2FSDCvCgbi3DQIwbU3%2BN%2BfdCdqIO6nYGip2Rey6MaprKZ2s4fw9Fy7BMTJmO0TKFOTcF38PZV7g7eIwhtjPrwY6qAEcGFjn0jQv0wmvr7kkvrxWgIT2TeN2sT5IhDfhC72J68CPdslZ30O%2Fqs9kxc4IP%2FAd3DDC2MgxFOgnLgCKFaeUmUIVEiXIYb7keMSUHivFwsvMLjn4jMZGLSLmdJP9TP%2Fyvwc8RGSYhDxPi36JQKJDJ8pm7yzLm7%2By3S0V3ADGU8lZ5%2FfaVPDVgHoBd5uNBA5%2B1%2Bjx2%2BTY10vR1uQ4ri5SMMmMlUU%2FAJA%3D&X-Amz-Signature=3c0d7e86d76cf5c6b693fedec8fe78b3e387529c88f9e2386db61d412ecc2ae5&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&x-id=GetObject https://b2c-public-website-prod-assets-bucket-name.s3.ap-sou... [1] https://www.energex.com.au/our-services/connections/residential-and-commercial-connections/solar-connections-and-other-technologies/dynamic-connections-for-energy-exports https://www.energex.com.au/our-services/connections/resident... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/rooftop-solar-cells-in-australia-to-outperform-demand/103489806 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/rooftop-solar-cells-i...
devwastaken 3y ago
There is no such mechanism of "they use the grid to store electricity for them to use after the sun goes down". Solar offsets the other already producing nat gas, nuclear, coal, etc. The time batteries are used are in the edge case where it's more cost effective to have storage rather than build a whole new plant.
- PaulKeeble 3y ago
  Batteries can also save you money. When you take the lifetime of the battery in cycles and its average capacity over that time you can get a price per KWH to store and discharge that amount of power. For me that comes out to 8p a KWH. Producing a KWH is less than that, about 6p a KWH so a battery is relatively expensive just to store power. However buying from the grid costs 35 p a KWH and on top of that through the night due to Wind and Nuclear power I can buy power at 14.5p a KWH. Given these numbers its pretty clear that using my own solar power and storing it in a battery to use over night is double the price of using it directly due to the battery but its also still less than half the price of buying it from the grid. In addition through the winter when there isn't enough sunshine power can be bought and stored in the battery and used throughout the day avoiding higher day rates and saves about 40%. Batteries are economically viable and for me at least they will pay back in half the time the solar panels do. The difference in price to the grid is so vast and nearly 5x what it costs from the panels that the additional battery storage cost makes sense up to a certain point of capacity. Its also greener because it shifts power needs and flattens demand which better utilises the green power available. I really recommend people take the price of a battery (say $1000 for 5KWH for 6000 cycles average 90% capacity) and bring that price back to something like the unit price because its one of the easier ways to account for this sort of infrastructure and what it really costs and its easily comparable in what is done today. That battery would in its lifetime charge/discharge about 26,460 KWH, which is about 3.7 cents a KWH for storage, if you can get more than that differential for power from panels or difference pricing based on time then you may be able to do some good while also saving money and with an inverter too if you don't have one its more like 8 cents a KWH (but averages less the more battery you can utlise). With Sodium Ion looming this battery equation will get even more compelling for more people.

by 7e 3y ago

_aavaa_ 3y ago

Levelized costs refer to the costs the owner of the asset has to pay. For grid solar that’s liekly the utility company, but it’s definitely not you. For your own solar you’re the owner. It’s the minimum breakeven sell price for the owner. except you don’t pay the utilities that price. You are also charge, at a minimum, transmission and distribution fees. Further, the grid isn’t 100% solar and electricity prices are dictated by a variety of factors, lcoe being an estimate for the floor of each asset.

rstuart4133 3y ago

The OP didn't mention LCoE. The comparison was based on quote "the price they pay for power from the grid". That price includes transmission overhead, retail markup and government charges, all of which the "individual" who installs their own power plant avoids. And he's usually right, although I'm not so sure of the "dramatic" bit. It's why people who own their own houses in a sunny location save money by installing solar.

7e 3y ago
No, people who own houses in sunny locations save money by legislation that forces the utility to buy power from them at retail prices (“net metering”), and without having to pay for batteries for energy storage. That’s not a DIY solution. Power is sold to the grid at peak sun and bought back later after the sun goes down. In effect, they are using the grid to store power for them, and the utility is losing a lot of money on the transaction. Supplying power after the sun goes down or the wind stops blowing is the expensive part. You don’t believe LCoE, which doesn’t factor in storage costs, is a proper apples-to-apples comparison of renewable energy costs to the consumer. Let’s take the all-in, then, which includes storage/dispatchable sources of energy: have a look at https://www.whatnextnow.com/home/solar/sunmetrix-grid-parity-map-for-residential-solar-energy-in-the-united-states https://www.whatnextnow.com/home/solar/sunmetrix-grid-parity.... Take the $3 per kW solar cost. Now add $6 per kW for two installed Powerwalls to store that energy without relying the grid to bank it with net metering. That’s now $9 per kW, and almost no state is competitive, even with subsidies. The competitive states are those with a lot of sun (and subsidies) but even that number is illusory, because those panels put out so much power one needs to buy even more super-expensive Powerwalls to store all of it to use later.
- rstuart4133 3y ago
  > No, people who own houses in sunny locations save money by legislation that forces the utility to buy power from them at retail prices (“net metering”), and without having to pay for batteries for energy storage. As a person who owns a house in a sunny location that has solar, I think I can speak with some authority on the matter. Firstly, we've never had net metering here. Secondly, the current price paid for the feed-in you can get has dropped below the average wholesale, in fact it's at $0.05/kWh it close to 1/2 [0]. Thirdly, some retailers limit how much feed in they will pay for (but the take it all, which pisses me off no end). The electricity wholesaler has got legalisation passed that allows them to turn off feed in from household solar at will. [1] Finally, batteries are too expensive to make sense (but that is rapidly changing), and so are currently rare. I don't know why you brought them up. Currently we pay about $0.30 / kWh [0]. We consume about 30 kWh/day. Lets conservatively assume we get 10 kWh self use, and have a system that generates 20 kWh/hr per day. That system will cost around $4,000 here, and will return about $1300 per year power we don't pay for and feed-in. It pays for itself in about 3 years. Those figures are very conservative. In the remainder of its 25 year lifetime, the power it provides is free. Consequently, solar roof top installations are going gang busters here. [3] I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it's wrong. [0] https://b2c-public-website-prod-assets-bucket-name.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/website-assets/energex_tou_power-drive-day.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIA5YXICBYEDYFRSW7K%2F20240315%2Fap-southeast-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240315T065015Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEH8aDmFwLXNvdXRoZWFzdC0yIkgwRgIhAOHCKAFdJYMGLPkHJTL8BLrCgvE4yxH5ah4SxBo%2F%2BioJAiEA83i39Zwz%2FRDqzyUccivKkM8fgg1OI2X2BJNWam%2BkHQMqlQYIiP%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARAAGgw5NDY0NTMyMjA4NzIiDIxYmBRUSi6FLWPi%2BirpBbTZeO%2FOzHoSjTOkxGe1zqfZmI7HQ6baYClgflpEHxnPNS%2B95UnPkqV23Q%2B2MO1xzM6fK2nOnGV7L2aVqGRuCIKPFXQJcKrybRAY0JSCpCgd3fzl0m8c7ERTD76Dzj0VJ7x5aV6JvoAOlMzRuNHbCzAc8Y2avsUX9mvEYqNVhQoY9FZbvTmKACeNoBdIAbx1sKkgW6nX7NFDOcXGISj2b1W1petUMbyfAmX4KCaASmBHvq7GN%2BgsUe%2BSDBPb6jEh1ok8BBLAqGQ7LPQq2a424Wp7d90TZ7D2gOzQeKWkb6UHCkvy6%2F4j81Yk6ltgfx1kexsL2lU8NP4%2FFOQlvnpsv6fMSaQ08dvrB%2FbwkwB9igcAla3%2FxAbRqa0TmoYyww9FGoTsCzFk2qFEDjTk8SQnlE7mavg3YUEJpySuBXFMrgGoezoUgM0oYRvlIvXRp5FJqo08nBf20DcqnqTY1VGN97NWZeMGIcl%2FZ6K6md32GZk0A1%2Bb3LgwQ%2BuILSnZFEftUOleyD1GPvua%2FkGvQdYeO5IMbxyTjxj5lhzBX07BgZb3W1HMQdbu8MYVbdMVDu%2BWu%2Fc13uYFi%2FQId4Tf99JMJgKddt%2FFYTBR3FIklxHHfnHjZB4N%2FTROb822YFusAUq3KNZ1Iv0Dqtp8UU2TWDaIKyO4q%2FvKyYCg7rsQnCAaDx7XovFRhlO1nFzhHwSQnxTSSbsPyyhMQ21buyfil4Aym2QDkh4DdcoE1bOP3jVuQt9Xezer9dlkyI8wSHO0os7Ai%2Fj0%2FQlSlCub37QTCUBJrmmRdBTh0vuH4nsgrIypcoxIpbTZxtj5bVRso4l3c6%2Fn%2FjssTo8U8MJONxZ3Xjn9fAspFqd2Yeclm0Lp4RJcK%2FUdZp1bZVG5ZiKrtDFCngz3JF4RGEXJuMIHkKcnyrn3Yc%2FSDCvCgbi3DQIwbU3%2BN%2BfdCdqIO6nYGip2Rey6MaprKZ2s4fw9Fy7BMTJmO0TKFOTcF38PZV7g7eIwhtjPrwY6qAEcGFjn0jQv0wmvr7kkvrxWgIT2TeN2sT5IhDfhC72J68CPdslZ30O%2Fqs9kxc4IP%2FAd3DDC2MgxFOgnLgCKFaeUmUIVEiXIYb7keMSUHivFwsvMLjn4jMZGLSLmdJP9TP%2Fyvwc8RGSYhDxPi36JQKJDJ8pm7yzLm7%2By3S0V3ADGU8lZ5%2FfaVPDVgHoBd5uNBA5%2B1%2Bjx2%2BTY10vR1uQ4ri5SMMmMlUU%2FAJA%3D&X-Amz-Signature=3c0d7e86d76cf5c6b693fedec8fe78b3e387529c88f9e2386db61d412ecc2ae5&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&x-id=GetObject https://b2c-public-website-prod-assets-bucket-name.s3.ap-sou... [1] https://www.energex.com.au/our-services/connections/residential-and-commercial-connections/solar-connections-and-other-technologies/dynamic-connections-for-energy-exports https://www.energex.com.au/our-services/connections/resident... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/rooftop-solar-cells-in-australia-to-outperform-demand/103489806 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/rooftop-solar-cells-i...

devwastaken 3y ago

There is no such mechanism of "they use the grid to store electricity for them to use after the sun goes down". Solar offsets the other already producing nat gas, nuclear, coal, etc. The time batteries are used are in the edge case where it's more cost effective to have storage rather than build a whole new plant.

PaulKeeble 3y ago
Batteries can also save you money. When you take the lifetime of the battery in cycles and its average capacity over that time you can get a price per KWH to store and discharge that amount of power. For me that comes out to 8p a KWH. Producing a KWH is less than that, about 6p a KWH so a battery is relatively expensive just to store power. However buying from the grid costs 35 p a KWH and on top of that through the night due to Wind and Nuclear power I can buy power at 14.5p a KWH. Given these numbers its pretty clear that using my own solar power and storing it in a battery to use over night is double the price of using it directly due to the battery but its also still less than half the price of buying it from the grid. In addition through the winter when there isn't enough sunshine power can be bought and stored in the battery and used throughout the day avoiding higher day rates and saves about 40%. Batteries are economically viable and for me at least they will pay back in half the time the solar panels do. The difference in price to the grid is so vast and nearly 5x what it costs from the panels that the additional battery storage cost makes sense up to a certain point of capacity. Its also greener because it shifts power needs and flattens demand which better utilises the green power available. I really recommend people take the price of a battery (say $1000 for 5KWH for 6000 cycles average 90% capacity) and bring that price back to something like the unit price because its one of the easier ways to account for this sort of infrastructure and what it really costs and its easily comparable in what is done today. That battery would in its lifetime charge/discharge about 26,460 KWH, which is about 3.7 cents a KWH for storage, if you can get more than that differential for power from panels or difference pricing based on time then you may be able to do some good while also saving money and with an inverter too if you don't have one its more like 8 cents a KWH (but averages less the more battery you can utlise). With Sodium Ion looming this battery equation will get even more compelling for more people.