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This is over regulation imo. If you support this then you can’t complain about there not being any low cost housing because it’s regulations akin to this that i

This is over regulation imo. If you support this then you can’t complain about there not being any low cost housing because it’s regulations akin to this that is increasing the costs. 25->100 is more of a luxury then a necessity

rsynnott 3y ago
… WAit, how, precisely, does this make housing more expensive? Like, what is the method of action?
- cogman10 3y ago
  It's the (IMO faulty) theory that all regulations increase prices. Sort of like "if you require all houses to meet code, you can't have a market for very low quality houses that would decrease the prices of mid quality houses". The problem with this theory, particularly in the case of an ISP, is you need an actual free and open market with a large amount of competition before it starts making any sense. When you talk about things like ISPs which are region locked and have low or even no competition then it's meaningless. A region locked ISP can (and will) charge pretty much any price the market will bear divorced from the actual cost of service.
  - google234123 3y ago
    California has at least 24,000 regulations applying to residential housing FYI
- cavisne 3y ago
  Depending on how they treat oversubscription, Wireless ISP's cant really offer this speed reliably, so they would lose their subsidy. So building housing in a remote area only served by a WISP gets more expensive. In practice I don't think the FCC really thinks about oversubscription.
rrr_oh_man 3y ago
> 25->100 is more of a luxury then a necessity Not if you work remotely.
- chgs 3y ago
  I’ve worked remotely for well over a decade. I currently t have 32/8. I rarely use even half that. The occasional large file may take a few seconds to download, it’s hardly a problem to wait 10 seconds though.
- l72 3y ago
  Agreed. I work from home, but my upload speed still kills me at time. It is not uncommon to need to share a 500M+ file with a colleague, and 30-60 minutes is just too slow. I still have to go into the office on some days when I know I'll be doing stuff like this. Not to mentions that for my personal computers, I want offsite backups. I have to take a hard-drive and personal laptop to the office every few months to seed a full backup, since it is just too slow from home, other than the incremental backups.
- tzs 3y ago
  Not necessarily. If your work uses AWS and only needs the smaller instance sizes 25 mbps might be plenty. Those instances do not have very high network performance. I don't think I've ever managed to get above 20 mbps downloading from my employer's little AWS instances.
cogman10 3y ago
How much do you pay for internet? Maybe you should be directing your ire elsewhere. I currently pay $60/month for 600 down. An ISP that actually struggles to provide 100mbps down at a reasonable rate, today, is simply one that refuses to update their hardware. 100mbps is not hard to achieve with semi-modern hardware. I know of ISPs servicing remote small communities with 1gbps down at $100/month. 300 down for $30/month.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  It’s less a hardware problem and more a medium problem; to go over 100Mbit/sec reliably you’re realistically looking at fibre (or maybe coax, but coax isn’t particularly cost-effective or practical in the rural areas that tend to have problems in this direction.)
  - Cody-99 3y ago
    DOCSIS has been able to push 100Mbit/s over coax for nearly 2 decades. Hanging fiber isn't really a complex process anymore anyways. We already run power to basically everywhere people live so hanging some fiber as you go isn't that hard. Electric coops have been receiving federal funding to hang fiber in even the most rural areas for the last 8-10 years with great success.
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      Oh, sure, but deploying high-speed DOCSIS only really makes sense relative to fibre in _relatively_ dense areas; it’s not a particularly sensible solution for rural ones.
  - bongodongobob 3y ago
    Huh? Business class coax in my area is 1 Gb down. And yes, it does reach those speeds. Are you thinking of DSL?
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      Is this a relatively urban area, though? Generally, high speed coax networks these days consist of a relatively short, often shared stretch of coax, connecting back to a fibre-optic node. You’re looking at something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fiber-coaxial#/media/File:HFC_Network_Diagram.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fiber-coaxial#/media/Fi... If the premises served are low-density enough, you may be looking at only one or two per coax section, and at that point you’re probably cheaper just using fibre to the premises anyway.
faeriechangling 3y ago
25mbps being "broadband" is a bit of a joke, a single 4k stream can exceed that. 100mbps is about what is needed for todays "broadband" applications. Raising the floor to 20mbps for uploads is also fairly important for more practical things, having to backup a laptop at 3mbps was wholly impractical. 20mbps is a good bump if you're running some backups overnight, or uploading a 4k video file. I don't see any reason to raise the definition of bandwidth higher for the next decade though. But I should stress, the amount of money needed to make these upgrades is pretty marginal in the grand scheme of things, we're not talking about replacing a ton of last mile wiring.
- google234123 3y ago
  Every increase to the cost of living is probably marginal alone
- astrostl 3y ago
  > 25->100 is more of a luxury then a necessity > a single 4k stream can exceed that I think this is an odd choice of a counter-example. Is 4k streaming a necessity or a luxury? How many people could even tell the difference in an A/B test between 4k and 1080p on their televisions at their viewing distances? > 20mbps is a good bump if you're running some backups overnight, or uploading a 4k video file. I agree that it's a good bump. Back to necessity vs luxury, how many people back up entire laptops (with or without a sense of urgency) and/or upload 4k video files? > we're not talking about replacing a ton of last mile wiring Of course we are, unless it's delivered wirelessly. A huge percentage of last miles are relying on DSL over lousy POTS lines. I use DSL as a backup connection because cable is so unreliable for me, and the fastest I can get in a major metro area is 25-30Mb/s against AT&T's "Internet 50" plan.
kalkr 3y ago
what would you propose instead? would you keep it the same?
dghlsakjg 3y ago
Changing the definition of something for statistical purposes is over-regulation?
Cody-99 3y ago
This is a wild thing to comment. Nothing is stopping internet providers from selling internet below broadband standard and many do. Changing the exact meaning of broadband allows the government to raise the standard of service people receive and pressure ISPs to be better. Now ISPs have to be at 100/20 minimum otherwise they will not be able to receive grants or other government funding. It isn't over regulation to mandate ISPs who take government money to meet some pretty basic speed requirements. 100/20mbit isn't even a high bar.
RacerCrispTaru 3y ago
You're all getting scammed. I pay 29€ for 1000/100 (2/3ms to first hop) but the contract is a few years old. I could upgrade to 2500/500 at the same price.

rsynnott 3y ago

… WAit, how, precisely, does this make housing more expensive? Like, what is the method of action?

cogman10 3y ago
It's the (IMO faulty) theory that all regulations increase prices. Sort of like "if you require all houses to meet code, you can't have a market for very low quality houses that would decrease the prices of mid quality houses". The problem with this theory, particularly in the case of an ISP, is you need an actual free and open market with a large amount of competition before it starts making any sense. When you talk about things like ISPs which are region locked and have low or even no competition then it's meaningless. A region locked ISP can (and will) charge pretty much any price the market will bear divorced from the actual cost of service.
- google234123 3y ago
  California has at least 24,000 regulations applying to residential housing FYI
cavisne 3y ago
Depending on how they treat oversubscription, Wireless ISP's cant really offer this speed reliably, so they would lose their subsidy. So building housing in a remote area only served by a WISP gets more expensive. In practice I don't think the FCC really thinks about oversubscription.

rrr_oh_man 3y ago

> 25->100 is more of a luxury then a necessity Not if you work remotely.

chgs 3y ago
I’ve worked remotely for well over a decade. I currently t have 32/8. I rarely use even half that. The occasional large file may take a few seconds to download, it’s hardly a problem to wait 10 seconds though.
l72 3y ago
Agreed. I work from home, but my upload speed still kills me at time. It is not uncommon to need to share a 500M+ file with a colleague, and 30-60 minutes is just too slow. I still have to go into the office on some days when I know I'll be doing stuff like this. Not to mentions that for my personal computers, I want offsite backups. I have to take a hard-drive and personal laptop to the office every few months to seed a full backup, since it is just too slow from home, other than the incremental backups.
tzs 3y ago
Not necessarily. If your work uses AWS and only needs the smaller instance sizes 25 mbps might be plenty. Those instances do not have very high network performance. I don't think I've ever managed to get above 20 mbps downloading from my employer's little AWS instances.

cogman10 3y ago

How much do you pay for internet? Maybe you should be directing your ire elsewhere. I currently pay $60/month for 600 down. An ISP that actually struggles to provide 100mbps down at a reasonable rate, today, is simply one that refuses to update their hardware. 100mbps is not hard to achieve with semi-modern hardware. I know of ISPs servicing remote small communities with 1gbps down at $100/month. 300 down for $30/month.

rsynnott 3y ago
It’s less a hardware problem and more a medium problem; to go over 100Mbit/sec reliably you’re realistically looking at fibre (or maybe coax, but coax isn’t particularly cost-effective or practical in the rural areas that tend to have problems in this direction.)
- Cody-99 3y ago
  DOCSIS has been able to push 100Mbit/s over coax for nearly 2 decades. Hanging fiber isn't really a complex process anymore anyways. We already run power to basically everywhere people live so hanging some fiber as you go isn't that hard. Electric coops have been receiving federal funding to hang fiber in even the most rural areas for the last 8-10 years with great success.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    Oh, sure, but deploying high-speed DOCSIS only really makes sense relative to fibre in _relatively_ dense areas; it’s not a particularly sensible solution for rural ones.
- bongodongobob 3y ago
  Huh? Business class coax in my area is 1 Gb down. And yes, it does reach those speeds. Are you thinking of DSL?
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    Is this a relatively urban area, though? Generally, high speed coax networks these days consist of a relatively short, often shared stretch of coax, connecting back to a fibre-optic node. You’re looking at something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fiber-coaxial#/media/File:HFC_Network_Diagram.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fiber-coaxial#/media/Fi... If the premises served are low-density enough, you may be looking at only one or two per coax section, and at that point you’re probably cheaper just using fibre to the premises anyway.

faeriechangling 3y ago

25mbps being "broadband" is a bit of a joke, a single 4k stream can exceed that. 100mbps is about what is needed for todays "broadband" applications. Raising the floor to 20mbps for uploads is also fairly important for more practical things, having to backup a laptop at 3mbps was wholly impractical. 20mbps is a good bump if you're running some backups overnight, or uploading a 4k video file. I don't see any reason to raise the definition of bandwidth higher for the next decade though. But I should stress, the amount of money needed to make these upgrades is pretty marginal in the grand scheme of things, we're not talking about replacing a ton of last mile wiring.

google234123 3y ago
Every increase to the cost of living is probably marginal alone
astrostl 3y ago
> 25->100 is more of a luxury then a necessity > a single 4k stream can exceed that I think this is an odd choice of a counter-example. Is 4k streaming a necessity or a luxury? How many people could even tell the difference in an A/B test between 4k and 1080p on their televisions at their viewing distances? > 20mbps is a good bump if you're running some backups overnight, or uploading a 4k video file. I agree that it's a good bump. Back to necessity vs luxury, how many people back up entire laptops (with or without a sense of urgency) and/or upload 4k video files? > we're not talking about replacing a ton of last mile wiring Of course we are, unless it's delivered wirelessly. A huge percentage of last miles are relying on DSL over lousy POTS lines. I use DSL as a backup connection because cable is so unreliable for me, and the fastest I can get in a major metro area is 25-30Mb/s against AT&T's "Internet 50" plan.

kalkr 3y ago

what would you propose instead? would you keep it the same?

dghlsakjg 3y ago

Changing the definition of something for statistical purposes is over-regulation?

Cody-99 3y ago

This is a wild thing to comment. Nothing is stopping internet providers from selling internet below broadband standard and many do. Changing the exact meaning of broadband allows the government to raise the standard of service people receive and pressure ISPs to be better. Now ISPs have to be at 100/20 minimum otherwise they will not be able to receive grants or other government funding. It isn't over regulation to mandate ISPs who take government money to meet some pretty basic speed requirements. 100/20mbit isn't even a high bar.

RacerCrispTaru 3y ago

You're all getting scammed. I pay 29€ for 1000/100 (2/3ms to first hop) but the contract is a few years old. I could upgrade to 2500/500 at the same price.