6 ms·

> No one in Texas wants porn bans, abortion bans, IVF bans, restrictive marijuana laws and everything else going on down there You sound ripe for some travel!

> No one in Texas wants porn bans, abortion bans, IVF bans, restrictive marijuana laws and everything else going on down there You sound ripe for some travel! It's not a bad place to visit! You may want to believe what you wrote because it helps those of us with contrary preferences to pretend that we're just better aligned to some rational truth or something, but no: there are many people in Texas and elsewhere who sincerely believe that each of those things is good and something that they want for their community. The number or loudness of those people change when stirred up by politicians, and sometimes ideas that weren't widely considered previously are wholly seeded as part of a political strategy, but that doesn't really change that most people are fully sincere in their beliefs and that their beliefs can sometimes be radically different than your own.

paxys 3y ago
"No one" was a figure of speech. Yes there are always some people who want all of these things, but there have been countless polls done in all these states on topics like abortion and there is always a clear majority that is in favor of more sensible laws. One example is for exceptions for rape, incest and mother's health etc., which upwards of 85%+ of Republicans support. Yet the laws they enact don't reflect this, because these same people will not vote for moderates.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - godelski 3y ago
    Literal, exact, precise interpretations are for machines, not for men. And even with such precision we still often fail to communicate with machines. Qualifying words are an oft overlooked tool in language. Especially when someone is presenting an idea you disagree with. Humans often use analogies, exaggerations, representations, examples, and other linguistic tools to attempt to convey their points. But speech is far form simple. If you interpret words as they are, you will always fail to communicate. Words are an attempt at conveying the thoughts in one's head. Never trust the person that is bold enough to claim that they are impossible to misinterpret, because they are an immutable force and the main character in their own reality.
    - lamontcg 3y ago
      The OP didn't use any qualifying words, I would be happy to take the other side of this argument if they did. You're also lecturing me about a stance that I normally take and agree with. Apply your own logic to me, steelman my position, and figure out what position I'm actually taking.
      - godelski 3y ago
        >>>>>> No one in Texas wants porn bans, abortion bans, IVF bans, restrictive marijuana laws and everything else going on down there, but they will still enthusiastically vote for it to show party allegiance. That is the quote. It would be absolutely unreasonable to believe that 100% of Texans (or literally any demographic) is united on any issue. You are correct that the OP did not use a qualifier, but that is not the only form of miscommunication I mentioned (this one is called "hyperbole", a form of exaggeration, which was explicitly mentioned). So if you're going to complain to me about "lecturing" you (I'm not), you should probably demonstrate a reasonable interpretation. You got downvoted because a lot of people are quite used to this extremely common pattern of speech. It is okay if you are not, but learn from it and move on instead of doubling down.
        lamontcg 3y ago
        I might be familiar with hyperbole as well and don't need to have it explained to me. You're still failing at your own principle.
- melagonster 3y ago
  the vote results is 133:1.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  85%+ of laws passed by Republicans allow for abortion for rape, incest, and mother's life.
godelski 3y ago
I've lived in the deep south for a number of years. Problem is you're both right. Problem is there's a diverse set of opinions and it depends who you're going to come into contact with. I'll say that I know quite a number of people who claim to be stout libertarians (a very common stance in the south and especially in Texas) and even be much more supportive of legalizing all drugs because "government bad, personal choice good" and "government shouldn't be a babysitter." YET I've seen those same people vote for those politicians. I've seen those politicians run on those platforms and then push such agendas and then people not really care about it. Not too different from the old "I didn't speak out because I wasn't x, but then there was no one left to speak for me" quote. Truth is humans are full of hypocrisy, for better or worse. Some of this is so we can handle nuance in an approximate way without having to invest in the computation/effort to resolve those. It is a real thing though and we need to be nuanced to deal with it, including how we discuss it. BUT there's also a clear and measurable phenomena where politicians are not acting as good representatives. You can find many polls on things like Marijuana laws, government provided health coverage, government pension plans (cough social security cough), paid family leave, corporations not paying their fair share of taxes, wealthy not paying their fair share, complexity of taxes, return free filing, and many other things. You can find Pew and Gallup polls on this stuff running back for years, showing majority approvals. The issue, is we quibble over nuance AND oversimplify the nuance. We often pretend that the optimization functions are the same or identically conditioned. Often the difference is coming down to a focus on positive rights vs negative rights in the conditioning of the linear program. Abortion might be a good example. Liberals try to minimize the harm while conditioning on the liberty of the mother while conservatives tend to have the inverse approach. Essentially liberals will give up liberty of the unborn in favor of the currently living while conservatives are willing to give up liberty of the currently living for the unborn. You cannot maximize both liberties of the living and the unborn at the same time, there has to be a trade-off. Both want surprisingly similar things, but we frame them as extreme opposites because we are not discussing the nuance and we're arguing while we work from a different set of base assumptions assuming that the other persons are operating under the same assumptions. Which makes it quite difficult to actually understand the other person's goals and intentions. Thing is, people are happy to prey upon this complexity and difficulties in communicating. Knowingly or unknowingly. We are often unwitting players in this as it is so easy to get trapped into the mindset that others operate under the same premise that we do. Until we understand this, we are going to have extreme difficulties in communicating. Even if we want the same things and even if we want extremely similar outcomes. I'm sure many people here have had a "stupid argument" where you realize that you and the person you're passionately arguing with are on the exact same side, just expressing your views in different ways. It's often embarrassing and we laugh about it because we __are__ fucking idiots. Yes, this includes (especially) me. Don't listen to me, I'm a fucking idiot.
apatheticonion 3y ago
Not an American - from what I understand (and I could be wrong), isn't the voting system rigged to overrepresent conservative voters? Like one rural vote is worth 10x what one urban vote is worth? Or is that just for federal elections?
- bjoli 3y ago
  Gerrymandering is used to subvert democracy in the US. By both sides. The republicans have been trying to dissuade a lot of voters which to me, as a rather left (European left) leaning European seems very undemocratic.
- dsr_ 3y ago
  There are several problems here. The federal Senate is 2 Senators per state, no voting representation for territories (places not in admitted states) or Washington DC. So Vermont and Wyoming, with populations around 600,000 each, have the same vote strength as California (39M) and Texas (31M) -- 1.2 million people equated to 70 million. Gerrymandering ("from Gerry's salamander-shaped district") is the practice of the ruling party in any state drawing their districts for the federal House of Representatives so that their party wins multiple districts (by, say, 52-48%) and making the other party win a smaller number of districts (by 90-10%). Each district is required to have roughly the same number of people in it. The shaping is bad, but the per-population equality of representation is nearly optimal. Academics generally conclude that of the 435 districts, no more than 40 or 50 are actually representative of the political demographics of the state as a whole.
  - laverya 3y ago
    It also might be worth pointing out that while the Senate structurally favors low-population states (which in the US are more likely to be conservative), the Republicans currently have a higher proportion of seats in the House than the Senate.
  - apatheticonion 3y ago
    Is the concept of electoral reform realistic within the US? I believe the gold standard at the moment is a multi party system with ranked choice voting. I feel like the concept of having more choices to vote for would be appealing to most US voters - but I can't imagine such an initiative would be successful

paxys 3y ago

"No one" was a figure of speech. Yes there are always some people who want all of these things, but there have been countless polls done in all these states on topics like abortion and there is always a clear majority that is in favor of more sensible laws. One example is for exceptions for rape, incest and mother's health etc., which upwards of 85%+ of Republicans support. Yet the laws they enact don't reflect this, because these same people will not vote for moderates.

lamontcg 3y ago
[flagged]
- godelski 3y ago
  Literal, exact, precise interpretations are for machines, not for men. And even with such precision we still often fail to communicate with machines. Qualifying words are an oft overlooked tool in language. Especially when someone is presenting an idea you disagree with. Humans often use analogies, exaggerations, representations, examples, and other linguistic tools to attempt to convey their points. But speech is far form simple. If you interpret words as they are, you will always fail to communicate. Words are an attempt at conveying the thoughts in one's head. Never trust the person that is bold enough to claim that they are impossible to misinterpret, because they are an immutable force and the main character in their own reality.
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    The OP didn't use any qualifying words, I would be happy to take the other side of this argument if they did. You're also lecturing me about a stance that I normally take and agree with. Apply your own logic to me, steelman my position, and figure out what position I'm actually taking.
    - godelski 3y ago
      >>>>>> No one in Texas wants porn bans, abortion bans, IVF bans, restrictive marijuana laws and everything else going on down there, but they will still enthusiastically vote for it to show party allegiance. That is the quote. It would be absolutely unreasonable to believe that 100% of Texans (or literally any demographic) is united on any issue. You are correct that the OP did not use a qualifier, but that is not the only form of miscommunication I mentioned (this one is called "hyperbole", a form of exaggeration, which was explicitly mentioned). So if you're going to complain to me about "lecturing" you (I'm not), you should probably demonstrate a reasonable interpretation. You got downvoted because a lot of people are quite used to this extremely common pattern of speech. It is okay if you are not, but learn from it and move on instead of doubling down.
      - lamontcg 3y ago
        I might be familiar with hyperbole as well and don't need to have it explained to me. You're still failing at your own principle.
melagonster 3y ago
the vote results is 133:1.
paulddraper 3y ago
85%+ of laws passed by Republicans allow for abortion for rape, incest, and mother's life.

godelski 3y ago

I've lived in the deep south for a number of years. Problem is you're both right. Problem is there's a diverse set of opinions and it depends who you're going to come into contact with. I'll say that I know quite a number of people who claim to be stout libertarians (a very common stance in the south and especially in Texas) and even be much more supportive of legalizing all drugs because "government bad, personal choice good" and "government shouldn't be a babysitter." YET I've seen those same people vote for those politicians. I've seen those politicians run on those platforms and then push such agendas and then people not really care about it. Not too different from the old "I didn't speak out because I wasn't x, but then there was no one left to speak for me" quote. Truth is humans are full of hypocrisy, for better or worse. Some of this is so we can handle nuance in an approximate way without having to invest in the computation/effort to resolve those. It is a real thing though and we need to be nuanced to deal with it, including how we discuss it. BUT there's also a clear and measurable phenomena where politicians are not acting as good representatives. You can find many polls on things like Marijuana laws, government provided health coverage, government pension plans (cough social security cough), paid family leave, corporations not paying their fair share of taxes, wealthy not paying their fair share, complexity of taxes, return free filing, and many other things. You can find Pew and Gallup polls on this stuff running back for years, showing majority approvals. The issue, is we quibble over nuance AND oversimplify the nuance. We often pretend that the optimization functions are the same or identically conditioned. Often the difference is coming down to a focus on positive rights vs negative rights in the conditioning of the linear program. Abortion might be a good example. Liberals try to minimize the harm while conditioning on the liberty of the mother while conservatives tend to have the inverse approach. Essentially liberals will give up liberty of the unborn in favor of the currently living while conservatives are willing to give up liberty of the currently living for the unborn. You cannot maximize both liberties of the living and the unborn at the same time, there has to be a trade-off. Both want surprisingly similar things, but we frame them as extreme opposites because we are not discussing the nuance and we're arguing while we work from a different set of base assumptions assuming that the other persons are operating under the same assumptions. Which makes it quite difficult to actually understand the other person's goals and intentions. Thing is, people are happy to prey upon this complexity and difficulties in communicating. Knowingly or unknowingly. We are often unwitting players in this as it is so easy to get trapped into the mindset that others operate under the same premise that we do. Until we understand this, we are going to have extreme difficulties in communicating. Even if we want the same things and even if we want extremely similar outcomes. I'm sure many people here have had a "stupid argument" where you realize that you and the person you're passionately arguing with are on the exact same side, just expressing your views in different ways. It's often embarrassing and we laugh about it because we __are__ fucking idiots. Yes, this includes (especially) me. Don't listen to me, I'm a fucking idiot.

apatheticonion 3y ago

Not an American - from what I understand (and I could be wrong), isn't the voting system rigged to overrepresent conservative voters? Like one rural vote is worth 10x what one urban vote is worth? Or is that just for federal elections?

bjoli 3y ago
Gerrymandering is used to subvert democracy in the US. By both sides. The republicans have been trying to dissuade a lot of voters which to me, as a rather left (European left) leaning European seems very undemocratic.
dsr_ 3y ago
There are several problems here. The federal Senate is 2 Senators per state, no voting representation for territories (places not in admitted states) or Washington DC. So Vermont and Wyoming, with populations around 600,000 each, have the same vote strength as California (39M) and Texas (31M) -- 1.2 million people equated to 70 million. Gerrymandering ("from Gerry's salamander-shaped district") is the practice of the ruling party in any state drawing their districts for the federal House of Representatives so that their party wins multiple districts (by, say, 52-48%) and making the other party win a smaller number of districts (by 90-10%). Each district is required to have roughly the same number of people in it. The shaping is bad, but the per-population equality of representation is nearly optimal. Academics generally conclude that of the 435 districts, no more than 40 or 50 are actually representative of the political demographics of the state as a whole.
- laverya 3y ago
  It also might be worth pointing out that while the Senate structurally favors low-population states (which in the US are more likely to be conservative), the Republicans currently have a higher proportion of seats in the House than the Senate.
- apatheticonion 3y ago
  Is the concept of electoral reform realistic within the US? I believe the gold standard at the moment is a multi party system with ranked choice voting. I feel like the concept of having more choices to vote for would be appealing to most US voters - but I can't imagine such an initiative would be successful