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Can someone who understands Texas well help characterize the values and political behavior of it? As an outsider, I only have incomplete impressions: * Person

by neilv 3y ago

Can someone who understands Texas well help characterize the values and political behavior of it? As an outsider, I only have incomplete impressions: * Personal liberty is highly valued. * Pro individual ownership of guns, as well as self-defense. * Oil is a big part of the economy. * Socially conservative overall, with exception of some enclaves of more liberal or progressive values. * Large percentage of people identifying as Christian. * Centralized editorial influence over school textbooks, for not just Texas but the nation. * Aggressive anti-abortion push. Apropos of this post, I'm interested in whether there are conventions over how conflicting values are reconciled (e.g., if anti-porn is driven by social conservative values, how does that override personal liberty values).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
lotsofpulp 3y ago
> I'm interested in whether there are conventions over how conflicting values are reconciled (e.g., if anti-porn is driven by social conservative values, how does that override personal liberty values). The convention is if it helps my (perceived) tribe, good, and if it hurts the other tribe, good.
- neilv 3y ago
  I thought that was fairly recent US politics, of the last decade or so. Is that longer-term Texas values?
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    It has nothing to do with the US or Texas. Just human nature. People express conflicting thoughts, ideas, or actions because it benefits them. In fact, a little bit of inconsistency to benefit your tribe is a good signal to others in the tribe that you are willing to break rules to benefit yourself and/or whichever tribe you might find yourself in.
quesera 3y ago
The state legislature will vigorously defend the right to be demographically similar to legislators!
collinmcnulty 3y ago
The "personal liberty" is a rhetorical shield for protecting a certain kind of person and the things that person wants to do. If you don't fit that mold, your personal liberty is of little importance to the state of Texas.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>Large percentage of people identifying as Christian. This is likely a large driving factor of this ban. Despite the mantra of "separation of church and state", US as a whole has so much religion built into government and its people (our pledge has the line "one nation, under God". Our currency has "in God we trust) that it very much influences policy. >if anti-porn is driven by social conservative values, how does that override personal liberty values If we wanna be frank: sexism. If the adult industry were mostly male escorts and the abortion laws involved vasectomies, these laws would never even be put to the floor. Women in US congress are at an all time high, but is still only 28%. So issues involving women's right still don't have representation proportional to its population. Doublethink isnt the biggest issue here, sadly.
Finnucane 3y ago
Because it's not 'Texas' in aggregate but Abbot and the christofascist wing of the Republican party that want to turn the state into the Republic of Gilead. He's in a pissing contest with Ron DeSantis to see who can be crueler to anyone who doesn't fit his mold.
- NikkiA 3y ago
  Yet Texas, in aggregate, continues to vote him and the christofascists into office.
Rapzid 3y ago
Hi yes I can help; your perception of Texas sounds like it's based on a caricature. > conventions over how conflicting values are reconciled We have a functioning government with a legislature.
- krapp 3y ago
  To be fair - and I say this as a lifelong Texan - a lot of Texans lean hard into the caricature, especially in politics.
steveklabnik 3y ago
(I've lived in Texas for uhhhh five years now, in Austin.) You have to understand that Texas is a big place. Like any big place, there is significant diversity. The stuff you've said is what the government likes to project, but isn't really representative of the population as a whole. (Furthermore, this is confounded by certain issues playing out very differently in Texas than elsewhere: the left is more likely to like guns, for example.) For example: > * Personal liberty is highly valued. This is what they say, but not what they do. The state is constantly passing laws that restrict the freedoms of individuals. > Pro individual ownership of guns, as well as self-defense. This one is complicated. Certainly more people are pro-ownership of guns, but that doesn't actually mean they have them. Texas has the most guns in the county, but adjusted for population, it's 37th in the nation. > * Oil is a big part of the economy. It surely is, especially historically, but Texas has also generated more green energy than other states for a long time. Solar is huge, wind as well. > * Socially conservative overall, with exception of some enclaves of more liberal or progressive values. You're right in a certain sense: if you look at a map, it's mostly red. But a lot of that land has basically nobody living there, and the "enclaves" are large cities. It's tough to track political affiliation, but most reports show it to be very evenly split. "When will Texas turn blue?" is a question people have been asking for a long time, and the details of why it has not are complicated. But winning elections is different than sentiment, and the sentiment is at least very closely tied. > * Large percentage of people identifying as Christian. This is true; it's about 75%. > * Centralized editorial influence over school textbooks, for not just Texas but the nation. Not just textbooks, but see also the fights over vouchers and trying to privatize the school system. > * Aggressive anti-abortion push. This is true from the state, but that doesn't mean it's popular: a 2022 survey said that 78% of Texas voters think abortion should be allowed in some form, and only 15% think it should be completely outlawed. > I'm interested in whether there are conventions over how conflicting values are reconciled To be blunt about it, the current conservative movement in America isn't really interested in ideological consistency. They just don't see it as a problem.
Meekro 3y ago
I'm a Texan, a Christian, and a conservative; maybe I can help? Your impressions of Texas are all true, in my experience (though keep in mind that it's a big place and Austin is barely distinguishable from a California city). You're right that the dominant values come into conflict sometimes, with libertarians wanting to protect porn and social conservatives wanting to ban it. The reasons for wanting to ban porn go something like this: 1. Unmarried men will consume it in lieu of putting their sexual frustration to good use by looking for a wife -- or if necessary, working on self-improvement until they're worthy of the kind of wife they want. 2. Married men will consume it while depriving their wives of sexual contact. If necessary, those men should be confronting whatever marital problems are preventing sex from happening often enough to satisfy them. 3. A huge amount of porn production is downstream of major personal and societal tragedies; the actors being threatened in some way is eerily common (just ask Andrew Tate), and even the "consenting" ones often have histories of sexual abuse and unresolved trauma that are tainting their "consent." A hypothetical society where every daughter grows up in a two-parent household, is known and loved by her father, and is never raped, is going to have a major shortage of porn stars. Jordan Peterson has talked a lot about the downsides of porn, you can find plenty of snippets on YouTube. I'd recommend this if you want to know more about why conservatives oppose it. We have to keep in mind that half the population has below-average conscientiousness, and will find it very difficult to resist temptations (such as porn) that are daily put in front of them. Christian societies have generally believed that it's good to work together and structure things to minimize the number of such stumbling blocks (to the extent that it's feasible). Banning porn is considered a step towards that goal. BUT, you're also right that personal liberty is important and might cut against this. My guess is, this bill was framed in terms of age verification to try and work around this; the authors of it are clearly anti-porn, but if anyone asks, they could say "we're not banning porn, just preventing minors from accessing it." I've noticed some other commenters claiming things like "conservatives are lying about believing X, it's really an excuse to do Y" so let me address that: all of the viewpoints I've described here are very sincerely held, as I know well from many different conversations with people in the community.
- quesera 3y ago
  ...and male, obviously! > consume it in lieu of putting their sexual frustration to good use by looking for a wife > consume it while depriving their wives of sexual contact These are astounding ideas which, empirically, evoke laughter and/or revulsion in honest women. > A huge amount of porn production is downstream of major personal and societal tragedies; This clause sounds reasonable. But Texas has shown zero appetite for addressing the personal and social tragedies that lead some people to the porn industry. So, I am very skeptical that caring for the common (wo)man is part of the true motivation. > all of the viewpoints I've described here are very sincerely held It would be naive to believe that people cannot sincerely hold beliefs which are simply perpetuating of a self-serving narrative. In fact I'd say it's the norm. Sincerely held, but bonkers, is still bonkers.

by neilv 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

lotsofpulp 3y ago

> I'm interested in whether there are conventions over how conflicting values are reconciled (e.g., if anti-porn is driven by social conservative values, how does that override personal liberty values). The convention is if it helps my (perceived) tribe, good, and if it hurts the other tribe, good.

neilv 3y ago
I thought that was fairly recent US politics, of the last decade or so. Is that longer-term Texas values?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  It has nothing to do with the US or Texas. Just human nature. People express conflicting thoughts, ideas, or actions because it benefits them. In fact, a little bit of inconsistency to benefit your tribe is a good signal to others in the tribe that you are willing to break rules to benefit yourself and/or whichever tribe you might find yourself in.

quesera 3y ago

The state legislature will vigorously defend the right to be demographically similar to legislators!

collinmcnulty 3y ago

The "personal liberty" is a rhetorical shield for protecting a certain kind of person and the things that person wants to do. If you don't fit that mold, your personal liberty is of little importance to the state of Texas.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

>Large percentage of people identifying as Christian. This is likely a large driving factor of this ban. Despite the mantra of "separation of church and state", US as a whole has so much religion built into government and its people (our pledge has the line "one nation, under God". Our currency has "in God we trust) that it very much influences policy. >if anti-porn is driven by social conservative values, how does that override personal liberty values If we wanna be frank: sexism. If the adult industry were mostly male escorts and the abortion laws involved vasectomies, these laws would never even be put to the floor. Women in US congress are at an all time high, but is still only 28%. So issues involving women's right still don't have representation proportional to its population. Doublethink isnt the biggest issue here, sadly.

Finnucane 3y ago

Because it's not 'Texas' in aggregate but Abbot and the christofascist wing of the Republican party that want to turn the state into the Republic of Gilead. He's in a pissing contest with Ron DeSantis to see who can be crueler to anyone who doesn't fit his mold.

NikkiA 3y ago
Yet Texas, in aggregate, continues to vote him and the christofascists into office.

Rapzid 3y ago

Hi yes I can help; your perception of Texas sounds like it's based on a caricature. > conventions over how conflicting values are reconciled We have a functioning government with a legislature.

krapp 3y ago
To be fair - and I say this as a lifelong Texan - a lot of Texans lean hard into the caricature, especially in politics.

steveklabnik 3y ago

(I've lived in Texas for uhhhh five years now, in Austin.) You have to understand that Texas is a big place. Like any big place, there is significant diversity. The stuff you've said is what the government likes to project, but isn't really representative of the population as a whole. (Furthermore, this is confounded by certain issues playing out very differently in Texas than elsewhere: the left is more likely to like guns, for example.) For example: > * Personal liberty is highly valued. This is what they say, but not what they do. The state is constantly passing laws that restrict the freedoms of individuals. > Pro individual ownership of guns, as well as self-defense. This one is complicated. Certainly more people are pro-ownership of guns, but that doesn't actually mean they have them. Texas has the most guns in the county, but adjusted for population, it's 37th in the nation. > * Oil is a big part of the economy. It surely is, especially historically, but Texas has also generated more green energy than other states for a long time. Solar is huge, wind as well. > * Socially conservative overall, with exception of some enclaves of more liberal or progressive values. You're right in a certain sense: if you look at a map, it's mostly red. But a lot of that land has basically nobody living there, and the "enclaves" are large cities. It's tough to track political affiliation, but most reports show it to be very evenly split. "When will Texas turn blue?" is a question people have been asking for a long time, and the details of why it has not are complicated. But winning elections is different than sentiment, and the sentiment is at least very closely tied. > * Large percentage of people identifying as Christian. This is true; it's about 75%. > * Centralized editorial influence over school textbooks, for not just Texas but the nation. Not just textbooks, but see also the fights over vouchers and trying to privatize the school system. > * Aggressive anti-abortion push. This is true from the state, but that doesn't mean it's popular: a 2022 survey said that 78% of Texas voters think abortion should be allowed in some form, and only 15% think it should be completely outlawed. > I'm interested in whether there are conventions over how conflicting values are reconciled To be blunt about it, the current conservative movement in America isn't really interested in ideological consistency. They just don't see it as a problem.

Meekro 3y ago

I'm a Texan, a Christian, and a conservative; maybe I can help? Your impressions of Texas are all true, in my experience (though keep in mind that it's a big place and Austin is barely distinguishable from a California city). You're right that the dominant values come into conflict sometimes, with libertarians wanting to protect porn and social conservatives wanting to ban it. The reasons for wanting to ban porn go something like this: 1. Unmarried men will consume it in lieu of putting their sexual frustration to good use by looking for a wife -- or if necessary, working on self-improvement until they're worthy of the kind of wife they want. 2. Married men will consume it while depriving their wives of sexual contact. If necessary, those men should be confronting whatever marital problems are preventing sex from happening often enough to satisfy them. 3. A huge amount of porn production is downstream of major personal and societal tragedies; the actors being threatened in some way is eerily common (just ask Andrew Tate), and even the "consenting" ones often have histories of sexual abuse and unresolved trauma that are tainting their "consent." A hypothetical society where every daughter grows up in a two-parent household, is known and loved by her father, and is never raped, is going to have a major shortage of porn stars. Jordan Peterson has talked a lot about the downsides of porn, you can find plenty of snippets on YouTube. I'd recommend this if you want to know more about why conservatives oppose it. We have to keep in mind that half the population has below-average conscientiousness, and will find it very difficult to resist temptations (such as porn) that are daily put in front of them. Christian societies have generally believed that it's good to work together and structure things to minimize the number of such stumbling blocks (to the extent that it's feasible). Banning porn is considered a step towards that goal. BUT, you're also right that personal liberty is important and might cut against this. My guess is, this bill was framed in terms of age verification to try and work around this; the authors of it are clearly anti-porn, but if anyone asks, they could say "we're not banning porn, just preventing minors from accessing it." I've noticed some other commenters claiming things like "conservatives are lying about believing X, it's really an excuse to do Y" so let me address that: all of the viewpoints I've described here are very sincerely held, as I know well from many different conversations with people in the community.

quesera 3y ago
...and male, obviously! > consume it in lieu of putting their sexual frustration to good use by looking for a wife > consume it while depriving their wives of sexual contact These are astounding ideas which, empirically, evoke laughter and/or revulsion in honest women. > A huge amount of porn production is downstream of major personal and societal tragedies; This clause sounds reasonable. But Texas has shown zero appetite for addressing the personal and social tragedies that lead some people to the porn industry. So, I am very skeptical that caring for the common (wo)man is part of the true motivation. > all of the viewpoints I've described here are very sincerely held It would be naive to believe that people cannot sincerely hold beliefs which are simply perpetuating of a self-serving narrative. In fact I'd say it's the norm. Sincerely held, but bonkers, is still bonkers.