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I've often wondered if the american hatred of what we europeans love is born out of a real lived experience of vastly more gov. oppression than we have. We hav

I've often wondered if the american hatred of what we europeans love is born out of a real lived experience of vastly more gov. oppression than we have. We have no HSAs, no three or four layer tax systems, no governments trying to legislate really bizarre religious issues, no paranoid militarised police, no busy-body suburban sprawl of interfering no-bodies. Here, the prices in our stores are what we pay; our taxex are handled for us; the "invasion" of the government, eg., in healthcare, is to unburden us from concern. it seems "society and government" in the US is preoccupied with burdening people, and "micro-oppressions" of bureaucracy and interference

sharkweek 3y ago
I'm (drastically) oversimplifying, but there's a whole strategy here to starve the government and then point at it showing how ineffective it is.
- ein0p 3y ago
  I’m not an economist but what else do you propose we do with the government that’s thoroughly corrupt, and that’s charging $1T every 100 days on our collective credit card, to immediately piss it away on the most inane BS imaginable? What makes you believe that putting it in charge of $4.7T “healthcare system” we have in this country is going to improve, rather than worsen the matters?
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    'thoroughly corrupt" That is a slogan, to justify doing more bad things. The ends justify the means, and making up a reason. "Of course the government is corrupt, hence I'm justified in also being corrupt." If there is actual corruption and proof, it should be brought forward. Strangely enough, this is done, and Republican/Right have a much higher percentage of being the corrupt party. Even though this is their rally cry.
    - ein0p 3y ago
      If you don't see it, you not going to, so I'm not going to try to change your mind. Keep going as you are then, but keep in mind that it's not the ultra rich nor the poor who will be paying down those trillions. It'll be _you_. Each man, woman and child in the US already owes $100K. Bear that in mind when contemplating whether the government is corrupt, and whether you should let it borrow even more for no apparent benefit. Because frankly, I don't see the benefit, and I ain't going to pay all that. I'm going to retire elsewhere.
      - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        I see. You are equating national debt to corruption? That is a financial discussion. Supply/Demand, markets, investment, accounting. You'd be surprised how much 'free' markets need support to function. I thought you were talking about actual corruption, like giving your cousin the local contract to build a bridge and getting a kick back. It is hard to discuss these things when one side is just chanting a simple slogan. Democrats do try to invest in society more, and sometimes that takes on more debt to do that, but that isn't the definition of the word 'corruption'. Republicans do tend to give loans to 'friends' and get kickbacks. That is real 'corruption' and is documented in criminal cases.
        ein0p 3y ago
        Where does the money go? Why are we spending trillions on countless and unnecessary wars? Why does it cost $100B to build high speed rail between SF and LA? Why does it cost $1M to outfit a simple intersection with 4 traffic lights? Why are we spending $4.5T a year on non-functional “healthcare”? Why is it that our politicians get cushy “do nothing” sinecures after they leave “public service”? Etc, etc, etc. Until you start asking these questions yourself you won’t see the world for what it really is.
        FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        >"see the world for what it really is" Well, what is it? Do Enlighten. This seems like just angry ranting. Half of your complaints are just free-market. Republican's love free-markets until prices go up, boo-hoo. Republican's and Defense industry love wars. High Speed rail, without looking, I'd say geography and real-estate prices. 1M for traffic lights? Maybe high, is 500K ok? It might be high, but it isn't 100X high. CEO's get golden parachutes way bigger than the lowly civil servant driving a used car making 50K.
- joquarky 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast
throw_m239339 3y ago
> I've often wondered if the american hatred of what we europeans love is born out of a real lived experience of vastly more gov. oppression than we have. What is it that "Europeans" love that Americans "hate"?
- mjburgess 3y ago
  Governments, and "Freedom" as understood as governance
- otikik 3y ago
  Social security. Public education. Public transportation. Walkable cities. Strict gun regulation. Not spending half of our budget in the military and police. Laws that apply to rich people. Slavery (in prison) and child labor (in farms) not protected by laws and constitution. Not relying on wars to impulse the economy. Not having our city centers crawling with desperate, dispossessed people. Probably there’s more.
  - throw_m239339 3y ago
    > Social security. Public education. Public transportation. Walkable cities. Strict gun regulation. Not spending half of our budget in the military and police. Laws that apply to rich people. Slavery (in prison) and child labor (in farms) not protected by laws and constitution. Not relying on wars to impulse the economy. Not having our city centers crawling with desperate, dispossessed people. Probably there’s more. Well it seems, just like Americans, Europeans love age verification laws: https://apnews.com/article/porn-websites-age-verification-digital-services-act-64584aae905cb344dd3e1bfb385c7c27 https://apnews.com/article/porn-websites-age-verification-di...
whalesalad 3y ago
American issues are deeply rooted in christianity. Separation of church and state is unfortunately not really a thing here, despite it being inshrined in our constitution.
- mjburgess 3y ago
  that's the point of sep' of church and state. it's to protect the church and keep it religious. We have no sep' in the UK and our most sophisticated atheists are the appointed bishops of the church of Englandm (selected by, iirc, our prime minister)
- rayiner 3y ago
  “Separation of church and state” appears nowhere in the Constitution. The First Amendment says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” An “establishment of religion” refers to established churches, of which there were several in existence when the first amendment was ratified: https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/established-churches-in-early-america https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/established-churches.... What it’s saying is that Congress cannot establish a national church, or regulate the state established churches. The Constitution clearly doesn’t prohibit even state official churches. Massachusetts—one of the most important states at the time of the founding—had an established church until the 1820s! What isn’t in the Constitution is French-style “separation of church and state,” where religion cannot be a motivation for laws Congress is otherwise entitled to pass. Congressmen/women can vote for laws based on Christian beliefs just as they could vote for laws based on neoliberal or socialist beliefs.
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    For all intents and purposes, amendments to the constitution are the constitution.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      My comment above is talking about the First Amendment. When Congress approved the First Amendment in 1789, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and arguably South Carolina still had established state religions. The First Amendment simply prohibited Congress from messing with established state religions, or creating its own. It didn’t create a “separation of church and state.” And there is no other amendment that created a “separation of church and state.” You won’t find anything like that phrase in the Constitution or its amendments.
nozzlegear 3y ago
[e] A lot of it is deeply rooted in American culture, the founding of the country, and a culture of individual independence/reliance on the self. In regard to this pornography thing, it's really not related to any of that; it's more of an evangelicals versus... I guess everyone who's less-than-evangelical thing, which largely splits along red versus blue party lines in the south.
- mjburgess 3y ago
  The commenter was noting the contradiction between the love of freedom and the love of interfering in peoples live to impose petty moral norms My claim is that these are related: the more that people make petty their government, the more that they hate them
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    Ah my mistake, I misread your comment and edited mine. For what it's worth, I'm American and agree with your sentiment.
nonameiguess 3y ago
Originally, it was plain old-fashioned colonialism, having to pay tribute to an overseas king that wasn't doing anything for you to fund wars between France and England that didn't involve you. But that was a long time ago. Uncharitably, US southern states got up in arms (quite literally) about the federal government forcing them to end slavery and then later forcing them to integrate schools and serve blacks and whites at the same businesses. Charitably, there is a fair amount of legitimately bad stuff the federal government has done, i.e. Ruby Ridge, Waco, assassinating Fred Hampton, the red scare, interning of the Japanese, everything that was ever done to natives, trampling all over Hawaii. I don't think you can just say universally one way or the other works better. The US system is designed for it to be damn near impossible to ever have true tyranny, at the cost of an ineffective government. European governments tend to take the opposite approach. Right now, that is arguably working largely in Europe's favor. In the past, well, Europe had fascism and started multiple world wars and colonized over half the world. The US has certainly done some bad stuff, but not really anything quite like that, so the "avoid descent into outright autocracy" has largely worked out so far. There is, of course, no guarantee this will continue to work out in the future, either. Up until now, the basic idea has been the only organizations out there with the power to do things like fascism and world wars are states. As multinational private corporations become increasingly large and powerful, that may not remain the case, and the US does very little to tame them compared to what it does to tame the government.
philwelch 3y ago
Europe is passing age verification laws too: https://apnews.com/article/porn-websites-age-verification-digital-services-act-64584aae905cb344dd3e1bfb385c7c27 https://apnews.com/article/porn-websites-age-verification-di... The UK was in the process of requiring age verification for online pornography in 2018. One of the reasons the law fell through is because MindGeek’s age verification system (which news reports claimed to already be in use in Germany) was going to end up becoming a de facto monopoly, with all the privacy concerns that implies.
rayiner 3y ago
> We have no HSAs Health savings accounts? > no three or four layer tax systems Many European countries, like Spain, have multi-level tax systems, but have a single tax return. In the US, you have two tax returns. > no governments trying to legislate really bizarre religious issues Many European countries still have official churches! The UK is constantly trying to ban porn. Italy enacted a law similar to Texas’s last year: https://cne.news/article/3884-italy-blocks-porn-access-for-minors https://cne.news/article/3884-italy-blocks-porn-access-for-m... > no paranoid militarised police Let’s see if that remains true after a century of immigration from the Middle East.
- mjburgess 3y ago
  * home owners associations * an average american, in some states, can expect a tax rate at >50% * the UK's official church only appoints atheist; it would be impolite to appoint someone who actually believed in god * the UK hasnt banned porn; and despite some attempts, such extreme levels of intrusion would provoke a massive political backlash
  - rayiner 3y ago
    > home owners associations They have these in France and I'm sure lots of other european countries: https://www.droit-immo.com/french-property-owners-associations https://www.droit-immo.com/french-property-owners-associatio.... > * an average american, in some states, can expect a tax rate at >50% The average american is taxed nowhere near 50%. The average U.S. tax wedge--the effective tax rate--is about 30%, very similar to the U.K. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pdf https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pd.... > the UK's official church only appoints atheist; it would be impolite to appoint someone who actually believed in god The Anglican Church doesn't believe in God? That's quite an argument. The U.K. still has legally required prayer in schools! https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/schools-could-be-investigated-over-daily-worship-duty https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/schools-could-be-i.... Many schools follow that law, even if it's not usually enforced. > the UK hasnt banned porn; and despite some attempts, such extreme levels of intrusion would provoke a massive political backlash Texas hasn't banned porn either. What Texas did is require age verification for access to pornography. The U.K.'s OfCom is doing the exact same thing: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/news-centre/2023/implementing-the-online-safety-act-protecting-children https://www.ofcom.org.uk/news-centre/2023/implementing-the-o.... Italy did the same thing last year: https://cne.news/article/3884-italy-blocks-porn-access-for-minors https://cne.news/article/3884-italy-blocks-porn-access-for-m.... Many EU countries are planning on doing the same thing: https://www.veriff.com/fraud/learn/age-verification-legalization-in-eu-and-ukie https://www.veriff.com/fraud/learn/age-verification-legaliza.... As far as I can tell, Europe just has better marketing.

sharkweek 3y ago

I'm (drastically) oversimplifying, but there's a whole strategy here to starve the government and then point at it showing how ineffective it is.

ein0p 3y ago
I’m not an economist but what else do you propose we do with the government that’s thoroughly corrupt, and that’s charging $1T every 100 days on our collective credit card, to immediately piss it away on the most inane BS imaginable? What makes you believe that putting it in charge of $4.7T “healthcare system” we have in this country is going to improve, rather than worsen the matters?
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  'thoroughly corrupt" That is a slogan, to justify doing more bad things. The ends justify the means, and making up a reason. "Of course the government is corrupt, hence I'm justified in also being corrupt." If there is actual corruption and proof, it should be brought forward. Strangely enough, this is done, and Republican/Right have a much higher percentage of being the corrupt party. Even though this is their rally cry.
  - ein0p 3y ago
    If you don't see it, you not going to, so I'm not going to try to change your mind. Keep going as you are then, but keep in mind that it's not the ultra rich nor the poor who will be paying down those trillions. It'll be _you_. Each man, woman and child in the US already owes $100K. Bear that in mind when contemplating whether the government is corrupt, and whether you should let it borrow even more for no apparent benefit. Because frankly, I don't see the benefit, and I ain't going to pay all that. I'm going to retire elsewhere.
    - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
      I see. You are equating national debt to corruption? That is a financial discussion. Supply/Demand, markets, investment, accounting. You'd be surprised how much 'free' markets need support to function. I thought you were talking about actual corruption, like giving your cousin the local contract to build a bridge and getting a kick back. It is hard to discuss these things when one side is just chanting a simple slogan. Democrats do try to invest in society more, and sometimes that takes on more debt to do that, but that isn't the definition of the word 'corruption'. Republicans do tend to give loans to 'friends' and get kickbacks. That is real 'corruption' and is documented in criminal cases.
      - ein0p 3y ago
        Where does the money go? Why are we spending trillions on countless and unnecessary wars? Why does it cost $100B to build high speed rail between SF and LA? Why does it cost $1M to outfit a simple intersection with 4 traffic lights? Why are we spending $4.5T a year on non-functional “healthcare”? Why is it that our politicians get cushy “do nothing” sinecures after they leave “public service”? Etc, etc, etc. Until you start asking these questions yourself you won’t see the world for what it really is.
        FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        >"see the world for what it really is" Well, what is it? Do Enlighten. This seems like just angry ranting. Half of your complaints are just free-market. Republican's love free-markets until prices go up, boo-hoo. Republican's and Defense industry love wars. High Speed rail, without looking, I'd say geography and real-estate prices. 1M for traffic lights? Maybe high, is 500K ok? It might be high, but it isn't 100X high. CEO's get golden parachutes way bigger than the lowly civil servant driving a used car making 50K.
joquarky 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

throw_m239339 3y ago

> I've often wondered if the american hatred of what we europeans love is born out of a real lived experience of vastly more gov. oppression than we have. What is it that "Europeans" love that Americans "hate"?

mjburgess 3y ago
Governments, and "Freedom" as understood as governance
otikik 3y ago
Social security. Public education. Public transportation. Walkable cities. Strict gun regulation. Not spending half of our budget in the military and police. Laws that apply to rich people. Slavery (in prison) and child labor (in farms) not protected by laws and constitution. Not relying on wars to impulse the economy. Not having our city centers crawling with desperate, dispossessed people. Probably there’s more.
- throw_m239339 3y ago
  > Social security. Public education. Public transportation. Walkable cities. Strict gun regulation. Not spending half of our budget in the military and police. Laws that apply to rich people. Slavery (in prison) and child labor (in farms) not protected by laws and constitution. Not relying on wars to impulse the economy. Not having our city centers crawling with desperate, dispossessed people. Probably there’s more. Well it seems, just like Americans, Europeans love age verification laws: https://apnews.com/article/porn-websites-age-verification-digital-services-act-64584aae905cb344dd3e1bfb385c7c27 https://apnews.com/article/porn-websites-age-verification-di...

whalesalad 3y ago

American issues are deeply rooted in christianity. Separation of church and state is unfortunately not really a thing here, despite it being inshrined in our constitution.

mjburgess 3y ago
that's the point of sep' of church and state. it's to protect the church and keep it religious. We have no sep' in the UK and our most sophisticated atheists are the appointed bishops of the church of Englandm (selected by, iirc, our prime minister)
rayiner 3y ago
“Separation of church and state” appears nowhere in the Constitution. The First Amendment says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” An “establishment of religion” refers to established churches, of which there were several in existence when the first amendment was ratified: https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/established-churches-in-early-america https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/established-churches.... What it’s saying is that Congress cannot establish a national church, or regulate the state established churches. The Constitution clearly doesn’t prohibit even state official churches. Massachusetts—one of the most important states at the time of the founding—had an established church until the 1820s! What isn’t in the Constitution is French-style “separation of church and state,” where religion cannot be a motivation for laws Congress is otherwise entitled to pass. Congressmen/women can vote for laws based on Christian beliefs just as they could vote for laws based on neoliberal or socialist beliefs.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  For all intents and purposes, amendments to the constitution are the constitution.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    My comment above is talking about the First Amendment. When Congress approved the First Amendment in 1789, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and arguably South Carolina still had established state religions. The First Amendment simply prohibited Congress from messing with established state religions, or creating its own. It didn’t create a “separation of church and state.” And there is no other amendment that created a “separation of church and state.” You won’t find anything like that phrase in the Constitution or its amendments.

nozzlegear 3y ago

[e] A lot of it is deeply rooted in American culture, the founding of the country, and a culture of individual independence/reliance on the self. In regard to this pornography thing, it's really not related to any of that; it's more of an evangelicals versus... I guess everyone who's less-than-evangelical thing, which largely splits along red versus blue party lines in the south.

mjburgess 3y ago
The commenter was noting the contradiction between the love of freedom and the love of interfering in peoples live to impose petty moral norms My claim is that these are related: the more that people make petty their government, the more that they hate them
- nozzlegear 3y ago
  Ah my mistake, I misread your comment and edited mine. For what it's worth, I'm American and agree with your sentiment.

nonameiguess 3y ago

Originally, it was plain old-fashioned colonialism, having to pay tribute to an overseas king that wasn't doing anything for you to fund wars between France and England that didn't involve you. But that was a long time ago. Uncharitably, US southern states got up in arms (quite literally) about the federal government forcing them to end slavery and then later forcing them to integrate schools and serve blacks and whites at the same businesses. Charitably, there is a fair amount of legitimately bad stuff the federal government has done, i.e. Ruby Ridge, Waco, assassinating Fred Hampton, the red scare, interning of the Japanese, everything that was ever done to natives, trampling all over Hawaii. I don't think you can just say universally one way or the other works better. The US system is designed for it to be damn near impossible to ever have true tyranny, at the cost of an ineffective government. European governments tend to take the opposite approach. Right now, that is arguably working largely in Europe's favor. In the past, well, Europe had fascism and started multiple world wars and colonized over half the world. The US has certainly done some bad stuff, but not really anything quite like that, so the "avoid descent into outright autocracy" has largely worked out so far. There is, of course, no guarantee this will continue to work out in the future, either. Up until now, the basic idea has been the only organizations out there with the power to do things like fascism and world wars are states. As multinational private corporations become increasingly large and powerful, that may not remain the case, and the US does very little to tame them compared to what it does to tame the government.

philwelch 3y ago

Europe is passing age verification laws too: https://apnews.com/article/porn-websites-age-verification-digital-services-act-64584aae905cb344dd3e1bfb385c7c27 https://apnews.com/article/porn-websites-age-verification-di... The UK was in the process of requiring age verification for online pornography in 2018. One of the reasons the law fell through is because MindGeek’s age verification system (which news reports claimed to already be in use in Germany) was going to end up becoming a de facto monopoly, with all the privacy concerns that implies.

rayiner 3y ago

> We have no HSAs Health savings accounts? > no three or four layer tax systems Many European countries, like Spain, have multi-level tax systems, but have a single tax return. In the US, you have two tax returns. > no governments trying to legislate really bizarre religious issues Many European countries still have official churches! The UK is constantly trying to ban porn. Italy enacted a law similar to Texas’s last year: https://cne.news/article/3884-italy-blocks-porn-access-for-minors https://cne.news/article/3884-italy-blocks-porn-access-for-m... > no paranoid militarised police Let’s see if that remains true after a century of immigration from the Middle East.

mjburgess 3y ago
* home owners associations * an average american, in some states, can expect a tax rate at >50% * the UK's official church only appoints atheist; it would be impolite to appoint someone who actually believed in god * the UK hasnt banned porn; and despite some attempts, such extreme levels of intrusion would provoke a massive political backlash
- rayiner 3y ago
  > home owners associations They have these in France and I'm sure lots of other european countries: https://www.droit-immo.com/french-property-owners-associations https://www.droit-immo.com/french-property-owners-associatio.... > * an average american, in some states, can expect a tax rate at >50% The average american is taxed nowhere near 50%. The average U.S. tax wedge--the effective tax rate--is about 30%, very similar to the U.K. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pdf https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pd.... > the UK's official church only appoints atheist; it would be impolite to appoint someone who actually believed in god The Anglican Church doesn't believe in God? That's quite an argument. The U.K. still has legally required prayer in schools! https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/schools-could-be-investigated-over-daily-worship-duty https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/schools-could-be-i.... Many schools follow that law, even if it's not usually enforced. > the UK hasnt banned porn; and despite some attempts, such extreme levels of intrusion would provoke a massive political backlash Texas hasn't banned porn either. What Texas did is require age verification for access to pornography. The U.K.'s OfCom is doing the exact same thing: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/news-centre/2023/implementing-the-online-safety-act-protecting-children https://www.ofcom.org.uk/news-centre/2023/implementing-the-o.... Italy did the same thing last year: https://cne.news/article/3884-italy-blocks-porn-access-for-minors https://cne.news/article/3884-italy-blocks-porn-access-for-m.... Many EU countries are planning on doing the same thing: https://www.veriff.com/fraud/learn/age-verification-legalization-in-eu-and-ukie https://www.veriff.com/fraud/learn/age-verification-legaliza.... As far as I can tell, Europe just has better marketing.