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This is always an interesting point of discussion as well because 'sonically pretty terrible' is still somewhat subjective even from an audio engineering standp

This is always an interesting point of discussion as well because 'sonically pretty terrible' is still somewhat subjective even from an audio engineering standpoint. If the artist has got the sound they want, the producer has the sound they want (who was also Prince for these records) and the songs are incredibly successful and well loved, it's very difficult to argue that they're sonically terrible. In fact, you could argue that any 'improvements' would be ultimately reductive overall. These are incredibly distinctive sounding records.

ibern 3y ago
Couldn't agree more. You can't really speak about sonics in absolutist terms. Even so-called audiophiles can't agree on ideal sonics - is it a hyperclean recording with zero distortion and incredible dynamic range on CD, or is it the sound of tubes and tape on vinyl?
vr46 3y ago
Yeah, fair point, it's subjective but here it's a case of different things being important to different people. The album - SOTT in this instance - sounds the way it does and I've been listening to it for 37 years and wouldn't want it any other way, but it still evokes a feeling of dissatisfaction compared to other recording unearthed from the same era amidst the evidence that Prince just didn't care enough because he was too desperate to get the music out, and that attitude never really changed much until he died. It just wasn't a priority, but then other engineers came along, I mean, just one album later, and just captured more of him and his work. A lot of stuff he didn't really care about that much actually made a massive difference to his work - Laura LiPuma's artwork, graphics, visuals and designs were all hugely important to those albums - and when he went off on his own years later, those things fell off a cliff and the art was worse for it. As brilliant as he was, there were a bunch of things he really wasn't great at and other people very much improved his output. As for sonics, I feel that all those albums he made with Susan Rogers have a low ceiling for getting the most out of them - i.e. they don't sound any better on a £50K system than they do on a £100 system - and if that was an artistic goal, I'd give up arguing, but because he outsourced caring about that to others, it feels like we missed out a bit. But we will never know, and that's ok too.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  > …Prince just didn't care enough because he was too desperate to get the music out, and that attitude never really changed much until he died. As a huge early-/mid-career Prince fan, this is a surprising take. Prince was famous for his meticulous attention to detail and perfectionism in the recording studio. The lore is that "Purple Rain" (the song) went through 91 mixes before Prince was satisfied.
  - racl101 3y ago
    I thought he was known for not being a perfectionist. Like he recorded so much unique music that is currently unreleased and literally sits in a vault.
    - acuozzo 3y ago
      I suppose this depends on how perfectionism is defined; where the barrier lies. If a perfectionist is concerned only with perfection at release time, then lots of imperfect unreleased material can exist. Prince is likely an example of this case. If, on the other hand, perfectionism is applied to every step of the artistic process, then I'd reckon that very few imperfect unreleased materials are likely to exist. Steely Dan are a good example of this case.
  - vr46 3y ago
    Susan Rogers on Prince: "It’s really important. I think that’s a really important question. People have asked me, or they’ve prefaced questions by saying, “Prince was known to be a perfectionist.” I always have to correct them. He was not a perfectionist. He wouldn’t have had that output if he’s been a perfectionist. What he was was a virtuoso player and a genius with melody, a genius with rhythm, a genius at writing songs. It just poured out of him – he couldn’t wait on perfection. The important thing was to have the sound serve the ideas, not the other way around. Working quickly was fine with him and only a beginning engineer would have no bad habits to break. Only a beginner would be willing to go that fast."
    - 3y ago

ibern 3y ago

Couldn't agree more. You can't really speak about sonics in absolutist terms. Even so-called audiophiles can't agree on ideal sonics - is it a hyperclean recording with zero distortion and incredible dynamic range on CD, or is it the sound of tubes and tape on vinyl?

vr46 3y ago

Yeah, fair point, it's subjective but here it's a case of different things being important to different people. The album - SOTT in this instance - sounds the way it does and I've been listening to it for 37 years and wouldn't want it any other way, but it still evokes a feeling of dissatisfaction compared to other recording unearthed from the same era amidst the evidence that Prince just didn't care enough because he was too desperate to get the music out, and that attitude never really changed much until he died. It just wasn't a priority, but then other engineers came along, I mean, just one album later, and just captured more of him and his work. A lot of stuff he didn't really care about that much actually made a massive difference to his work - Laura LiPuma's artwork, graphics, visuals and designs were all hugely important to those albums - and when he went off on his own years later, those things fell off a cliff and the art was worse for it. As brilliant as he was, there were a bunch of things he really wasn't great at and other people very much improved his output. As for sonics, I feel that all those albums he made with Susan Rogers have a low ceiling for getting the most out of them - i.e. they don't sound any better on a £50K system than they do on a £100 system - and if that was an artistic goal, I'd give up arguing, but because he outsourced caring about that to others, it feels like we missed out a bit. But we will never know, and that's ok too.

CharlesW 3y ago
> …Prince just didn't care enough because he was too desperate to get the music out, and that attitude never really changed much until he died. As a huge early-/mid-career Prince fan, this is a surprising take. Prince was famous for his meticulous attention to detail and perfectionism in the recording studio. The lore is that "Purple Rain" (the song) went through 91 mixes before Prince was satisfied.
- racl101 3y ago
  I thought he was known for not being a perfectionist. Like he recorded so much unique music that is currently unreleased and literally sits in a vault.
  - acuozzo 3y ago
    I suppose this depends on how perfectionism is defined; where the barrier lies. If a perfectionist is concerned only with perfection at release time, then lots of imperfect unreleased material can exist. Prince is likely an example of this case. If, on the other hand, perfectionism is applied to every step of the artistic process, then I'd reckon that very few imperfect unreleased materials are likely to exist. Steely Dan are a good example of this case.
- vr46 3y ago
  Susan Rogers on Prince: "It’s really important. I think that’s a really important question. People have asked me, or they’ve prefaced questions by saying, “Prince was known to be a perfectionist.” I always have to correct them. He was not a perfectionist. He wouldn’t have had that output if he’s been a perfectionist. What he was was a virtuoso player and a genius with melody, a genius with rhythm, a genius at writing songs. It just poured out of him – he couldn’t wait on perfection. The important thing was to have the sound serve the ideas, not the other way around. Working quickly was fine with him and only a beginning engineer would have no bad habits to break. Only a beginner would be willing to go that fast."
  - 3y ago