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> Wow, that doesn't jive with my personal experiences or what I've ever read about sociopathy. It sounds more like you're describing folks on the autism spectru

> Wow, that doesn't jive with my personal experiences or what I've ever read about sociopathy. It sounds more like you're describing folks on the autism spectrum. The amount of undue hate that people on the spectrum get for being sociopaths or narcissist is awful. You are correct that they may misunderstand or "not get" social situations. You are incorrect in that they don't care / can't feel the emotion of a situation. Often they are overwhelmed by this and it's what makes "dealing" (passing as NT) difficult. The amount of times I have had people socially manipulate situations against me is difficult to count. Any time you speak up about this you are the "crazy" one. These have mostly been situations where sociopaths are abusing me for the entertainment / social benefit reason. They DO NOT CARE about the pain / suffering they cause. This has been a source of extreme stress, pain and suffering in my life. YMMV obviously but the amount of time I have to spend explaining this to people is disheartening. It's like nobody wants to believe that people can be so awful... and this belief can hand wave away any bad behavior being described. > because even if you have little empathy, behaving like a creepy scumbag is generally not going to be beneficial in the long run. I think you significantly underestimate the benefit to risk ratio. There are a lot more terrible, manipulative, sadistic people out there than "kind but misunderstood" people. The averages are not in our favor.

JohnBooty 3y ago
The amount of undue hate that people on the spectrum get for being sociopaths or narcissist is awful. You are correct that they may misunderstand or "not get" social situations. You are incorrect in that they don't care / can't feel the emotion of a situation. Often they are overwhelmed by this and it's what makes "dealing" (passing as NT) difficult. I absolutely agree. When I said the parent's post sounded more like they were describing autism, I strictly meant the part about struggling to understand social dynamics. I might have been able express that better, not quite sure. But more importantly yes, absolutely agree with what you wrote there.
- deleted 3y ago
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- dirtybirdnj 3y ago
  > When I said the parent's post sounded more like they were describing autism I have a feeling that the venn diagram between autism and the ASPD stuff is more than we realize. Same spectrum, just extreme dysfunction at polar ends. > I strictly meant the part about struggling to understand social dynamics. One thing that's been amazing for me (re: autism spectrum) is understanding the difference between "not seeing" the social dynamics and simply not feeling the same way the rest of society does... which is interpreted as "doesn't respect authority". To me it's stunning how groups completely lack any critical thinking. It's scary like falling asleep behind the wheel when driving, not a thing to be proud of and wear like a badge of honor. This introspection makes it easier to (attempt to) comprehend how ASPD people don't feel empathy. I don't feel any respect for people in positions of power who do not treat their subordinates (or customers) with respect. If I see it, I respect them... if not... I don't. I can only guess how ASPD folks feel like "well if I can take advantage of this person I will. If I don't someone else will, so I deserve it because it will happen." For me I think the issue is ASPD people do not see themselves as a problem, when they clearly are harmful to society. Somehow bringing them in line with the expectations of everybody else is a grave attack on their personal character. They are such effective manipulators that they can get away with it. They are like drunk drivers with a pass to DUI and cause as much wreckage as they please, because the cops like them and they have fun whenever they pull this person over. The victim the drunk driver injured has to "deal with it" on their own both financially and emotionally. Any complaining from the person who suffered the consequences is just "playing the victim" when the drunk who caused the crash faces no consequences. Why would this person ever change?
  - JohnBooty 3y ago
    I don't feel any respect for people in positions of power who do not treat their subordinates I'm not particularly on the autism spectrum (possibly on the shallow end) but I can absolutely assure you this is not an autism spectrum-specific trait. Clearly, folks on the spectrum are going to tend to value different things than folks on the spectrum. I'm not sure if you are venturing into "normies are sheeple, but us aspies think for ourselves!" territory but if so, I would tell you that you are wrong in the strongest possible terms. Why would [a person with ASPD] person ever change? Because there are a lot of downsides to constantly clashing with society, and a lot of upsides to living harmoniously/synergistically with society. If your neighbors don't loathe you, you can probably ask them to feed your cat while you're on vacation. I mean, on a micro scale, yeah. If a person with ASPD feels no guilt whatsoever, obviously they can maximize personal gain from every interaction. But things like reputation matter. If a person with ASPD has a reputation of exploiting and cheating everybody they interact with, people will avoid them. They can constantly seek out new people, and some do, but that is "expensive" in terms of time and effort and not necessarily going to be worth it to a lot of individuals even from a purely objective, amoral perspective. It's tangential, but, on the macro scale. A lot of people are liberal/progressive for reasons of empathy, or at least that is the stereotype -- ie, the "bleeding heart liberal." I think that's true to an extent but I also think there are a lot of purely selfish and amoral reasons to favor a more collective approach to society. I think that even if you surgically removed my ability to empathize with others I'd still be super liberal.

JohnBooty 3y ago

The amount of undue hate that people on the spectrum get for being sociopaths or narcissist is awful. You are correct that they may misunderstand or "not get" social situations. You are incorrect in that they don't care / can't feel the emotion of a situation. Often they are overwhelmed by this and it's what makes "dealing" (passing as NT) difficult. I absolutely agree. When I said the parent's post sounded more like they were describing autism, I strictly meant the part about struggling to understand social dynamics. I might have been able express that better, not quite sure. But more importantly yes, absolutely agree with what you wrote there.

deleted 3y ago
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dirtybirdnj 3y ago
> When I said the parent's post sounded more like they were describing autism I have a feeling that the venn diagram between autism and the ASPD stuff is more than we realize. Same spectrum, just extreme dysfunction at polar ends. > I strictly meant the part about struggling to understand social dynamics. One thing that's been amazing for me (re: autism spectrum) is understanding the difference between "not seeing" the social dynamics and simply not feeling the same way the rest of society does... which is interpreted as "doesn't respect authority". To me it's stunning how groups completely lack any critical thinking. It's scary like falling asleep behind the wheel when driving, not a thing to be proud of and wear like a badge of honor. This introspection makes it easier to (attempt to) comprehend how ASPD people don't feel empathy. I don't feel any respect for people in positions of power who do not treat their subordinates (or customers) with respect. If I see it, I respect them... if not... I don't. I can only guess how ASPD folks feel like "well if I can take advantage of this person I will. If I don't someone else will, so I deserve it because it will happen." For me I think the issue is ASPD people do not see themselves as a problem, when they clearly are harmful to society. Somehow bringing them in line with the expectations of everybody else is a grave attack on their personal character. They are such effective manipulators that they can get away with it. They are like drunk drivers with a pass to DUI and cause as much wreckage as they please, because the cops like them and they have fun whenever they pull this person over. The victim the drunk driver injured has to "deal with it" on their own both financially and emotionally. Any complaining from the person who suffered the consequences is just "playing the victim" when the drunk who caused the crash faces no consequences. Why would this person ever change?
- JohnBooty 3y ago
  I don't feel any respect for people in positions of power who do not treat their subordinates I'm not particularly on the autism spectrum (possibly on the shallow end) but I can absolutely assure you this is not an autism spectrum-specific trait. Clearly, folks on the spectrum are going to tend to value different things than folks on the spectrum. I'm not sure if you are venturing into "normies are sheeple, but us aspies think for ourselves!" territory but if so, I would tell you that you are wrong in the strongest possible terms. Why would [a person with ASPD] person ever change? Because there are a lot of downsides to constantly clashing with society, and a lot of upsides to living harmoniously/synergistically with society. If your neighbors don't loathe you, you can probably ask them to feed your cat while you're on vacation. I mean, on a micro scale, yeah. If a person with ASPD feels no guilt whatsoever, obviously they can maximize personal gain from every interaction. But things like reputation matter. If a person with ASPD has a reputation of exploiting and cheating everybody they interact with, people will avoid them. They can constantly seek out new people, and some do, but that is "expensive" in terms of time and effort and not necessarily going to be worth it to a lot of individuals even from a purely objective, amoral perspective. It's tangential, but, on the macro scale. A lot of people are liberal/progressive for reasons of empathy, or at least that is the stereotype -- ie, the "bleeding heart liberal." I think that's true to an extent but I also think there are a lot of purely selfish and amoral reasons to favor a more collective approach to society. I think that even if you surgically removed my ability to empathize with others I'd still be super liberal.