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One must wonder about the Czechs. There is the language for one thing. There is the resilience - Nazis, Communists and the Velvet Revolution. Then Closely Watch

One must wonder about the Czechs. There is the language for one thing. There is the resilience - Nazis, Communists and the Velvet Revolution. Then Closely Watched Trains, Zelary, Divided We Fall, The Unbearable Lightness of Being. And this. Maybe having an singular language does something?

Toutouxc 3y ago
> There is the language for one thing. > having an singular language What's that?
- ufocia 3y ago
  Czecho-Slovakia was a multicultural country with more than one language in common use. This was arguably one of the shortcomings that led to its WWII era capitulation.
  - imp0cat 3y ago
    First, he OP specifically mentions "the Czechs", as in the Czech part of Czechoslovakia. Second, languages had nothing to do with it. There was an idea that sacrificing a part of Czechoslovakia will be enough to keep Hitler at bay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement).
    - ufocia 3y ago
      Which Czech part, Bohemia, Moravia, Czech Silesia, or ...? Was it the "regions with German-speaking majority"? Languages had everything to do with it. "Bohemia became a part of Czechoslovakia, defying claims of the German-speaking inhabitants that regions with German-speaking majority should be included in the Republic of German-Austria."
      - imp0cat 3y ago
        But German, the language, was spoken pretty much everywhere (thanks to the Austro-Hungarian legacy). The German-speaking inhabitants, that is a whole different story.
        ufocia 3y ago
        OK, now you're backpedaling and muddying the waters. Language and customs are the most prominent aspects of a cultural identity. English is spoken pretty much everywhere. What's your point?
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    Shortcomings? What is up with these military strategic analysis that imply that Chechoslovakia could do anything but getting different degrees of crushed between Germany, Hungary and Poland?
    - asveikau 3y ago
      I've noticed an uptick in recent years of people who believe the multiculturalism is harmful to a society's survival. This is extremely popular with American right wingers who would like to limit immigration or segregate people by races. One of my favorite examples of a multi-ethnic state in Europe (kind of biased since I have some ancestry from there) is the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. That lasted a good long while with a mix of Balts, West Slavs, and East Slavs.
      - ufocia 3y ago
        The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth being a federation was hardly a mix. Also, despite the union's somewhat long existence, it was the union's multiculturalism that arguably led to its demise.
        asveikau 3y ago
        No sir, there was a mix. Any time you see a Lithuanian surname with "-auskas" it's because of exposure to Polish culture. There were tons of Poles in Vilnius. And Lithuanian aristocracy became rulers of Poland, starting with Jogaila. But the most ridiculous thing is that multiculturalism killed it. It was partitioned by foreign imperial powers, eg. split between Russia and Germanic powers.
        int_19h 3y ago
        I would also argue that Poland being culturally dominant in the union, and eventually translating it to political dominance (of e.g. Roman Catholics over Eastern Orthodox) severely diminished the original GDL multiculturalism, which was much more pluricentric and religiously tolerant. And that, arguably, was one of the causes of its eventual demise - e.g. would Ukraine have rebelled if they didn't perceive themselves as second-class citizens in Rzeczpospolita? And if it didn't, would Russia be able to eventually take over half of Poland?
  - wormik 3y ago
    Read this https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1930-1938-the-wilderness/the-munich-agreement/ https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1930-1938-th... It might shape your view a bit
    - ufocia 3y ago
      Not really, the Brits underestimated the Germans and Central Europe in general was sacrificed on the altar of presumingly keeping the war out of the West.
- NeoTar 3y ago
  Yeah - If singular means distinct, and even setting aside Slovak, then Czech is part of the West Slavic language family and my Polish-speaking partner says there is a degree of mutual intelligibility.
  - imp0cat 3y ago
    Yes, they sound very similar, but (because of historical reasons) the spelling is quite different (multiple letters in Polish vs accents/diacritics in Czech).
    - ufocia 3y ago
      They probably sound as similar to each other as German does to Danish.
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        I'd say that's roughly correct. Czech and Slovak have a different sound, melody. Czechs and Slovaks tend to underestimate the differences, because they largely understand each other. But that's to a large degree thanks to a large amount of interchange and exposure. These days, many young Czechs without exposure to Slovak often understand only very little Slovak.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ufocia 3y ago
You're whitewashing at least the WWII era. The Czecho-Slovak government capitulated pretty quickly after Germany's demands, ..., and the country was used to support Germany's was efforts. TBH, they did not receive a whole lot of support from their prior allies, to say the least, ahead of the capitulation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Czechoslovak_Republic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Czechoslovak_Republic As an aside, hopefully the relative lack of support for Ukraine does not have similar outcomes. There are some significant similarities between the two.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  > TBH, they did not receive a whole lot of support from their prior allies, to say the least, ahead of the capitulation. The "support" Czechoslovakia received from the western allies was an order to capitulate to German demands. As a reminder, this was the situation in 1938: https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u314/erding/Cz_map_150339.jpg https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u314/erding/Cz_map_15... The situation was much more hopeless than e.g. Ukraine was/is in. The Czech part was almost completely surrounded by Germany (controlling Austria and Silesia). Slovak part had a long border with Nazi-allied Hungary. Poland was not friendly at the time (taking part in the partition). The only kinda friendly neighbor was the tiny sliver of border in the east with Romania. If the Czechoslovakia decided to fight, it would be accused of aggression by the western powers (who basically declared Germany is in the right in Munich).
  - ufocia 3y ago
    The claim of "participation" in the so called partition is inflammatory. You make it sound like Poland was a party to some kind of an agreement to dissolve Czechoslovakia, when there is no evidence of that, especially in retrospect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_bo... I agree that the Czechoslovakian situation was less hopeful than that of Ukraine, at least for the moment.
    - AmalgatedAmoeba 3y ago
mikrl 3y ago
A large part of Švejk’s humor comes from the multilingual nature of the Austro-Hungarian empire at that time. The common soldiers speak Czech amongst themselves, German to the commanding officers, and a drunken old Polish colonel butchers both languages while giving them a pep talk. There are also miscommunications with Hungarians and Tatars. Central Europe is heavily multicultural and multilingual, even in 1914, but there are still strong national identities; because of, not despite.
- yreg 3y ago
  Some parts of it used to be more multicultural and multilingual than they are now. Bratislava was 36% German, 33% Slovak and 29% Hungarian in the 1919 census. Now it's ~90% Slovak.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Not some, pretty much all of Czechia and Slovakia were much more multicultural back then than now. Germans weren't just in Sudetenland, but was a significant minority in many small towns. Same with Hungarians (just in Slovakia). Now there are almost no Germans or Jews in either of them.
- talkingtab 3y ago
  It is an interesting thing to think about. It appears to me (an outsider) that the Czech identity is very strong. Why is that? Especially in the face of the occupation by the Germans and Russians since what 1938 or something? And the Velvet Revolution seems (again as an outsider) just an amazing thing. What role does having a separate language play? And the multiculturalism. In the US we have such a great homogeneity. If I drive into Rhode Island I don't find another language or another culture. It is not like driving from France into the Nederlands for example.
hilbert42 3y ago
I think you're onto something. I don't speak Czech but I've been there a number of times and I know people who live there. When Hašek wrote Švejk the Czechs were surrounded and influenced by vastly different nations—the crumbling remnants of the Austro-Hungarian Empire—which they were part of—the Russian Empire and Germany—both of which were in chaos after WWI. Even today they're still surrounded but at least now they're an independent nation with their own language so perhaps it's not surprising what comes out of them is quite unique. It's quite some years since I saw Closely Watched Trains with English subtitles and it had a huge impact on me. It's one of those films that one cannot get out of one's mind for days. In its own understated way it's a great film and it's not surprising that it was a Czech production. Its ending upset me greatly because whilst its story was fiction, it reminded me of similar tragic scenarios that were played out for real many times during WWII (it seems to me one of the purposes of the film was to remind us of the fact). BTW, when I first went to Czechoslovakia it was still under communist rule and the only practical (easiest) way to get from Vienna to Prague was by train from Franz-Josefs-Bahnhof and Emperor Franz Joseph Railway line. For some reason seeming known to the communists we had to use this single track line instead of the more modern dual track line via Brüno. I mention it because the Franz Joseph Railway was a once-in-a-lifetime experience to travel on, the track was in such terrible condition that one thought the train would derail any moment and the train only did about 30km/h max. After Communism fell the track via Brüno was opened up and although a much longer route the trip only took half as long.
- foobarian 3y ago
  When I went there first it was also still under communist rule, and the thing I still remember the most is that bread loaves commonly sold in the grocery stores had the price embossed into the crust (IIRC "5 Kčs"). Centrally controlled economies eh? So stable that it was practical to make price stamps distributed to bakeries. I wish I could get my hands on one of these brands...
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    You reminded me of my own childhood. Yes, 5 Kčs was a standard price. I was not yet 13 when the no-longer-Communist Czechoslovak government liberalized the prices. Back then, I was profoundly unsettled by the idea that the same loaf of bread could cost a different amount of money in two different stores. It felt as unnatural as having multiple birthdays.

Toutouxc 3y ago

> There is the language for one thing. > having an singular language What's that?

ufocia 3y ago
Czecho-Slovakia was a multicultural country with more than one language in common use. This was arguably one of the shortcomings that led to its WWII era capitulation.
- imp0cat 3y ago
  First, he OP specifically mentions "the Czechs", as in the Czech part of Czechoslovakia. Second, languages had nothing to do with it. There was an idea that sacrificing a part of Czechoslovakia will be enough to keep Hitler at bay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement).
  - ufocia 3y ago
    Which Czech part, Bohemia, Moravia, Czech Silesia, or ...? Was it the "regions with German-speaking majority"? Languages had everything to do with it. "Bohemia became a part of Czechoslovakia, defying claims of the German-speaking inhabitants that regions with German-speaking majority should be included in the Republic of German-Austria."
    - imp0cat 3y ago
      But German, the language, was spoken pretty much everywhere (thanks to the Austro-Hungarian legacy). The German-speaking inhabitants, that is a whole different story.
      - ufocia 3y ago
        OK, now you're backpedaling and muddying the waters. Language and customs are the most prominent aspects of a cultural identity. English is spoken pretty much everywhere. What's your point?
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Shortcomings? What is up with these military strategic analysis that imply that Chechoslovakia could do anything but getting different degrees of crushed between Germany, Hungary and Poland?
  - asveikau 3y ago
    I've noticed an uptick in recent years of people who believe the multiculturalism is harmful to a society's survival. This is extremely popular with American right wingers who would like to limit immigration or segregate people by races. One of my favorite examples of a multi-ethnic state in Europe (kind of biased since I have some ancestry from there) is the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. That lasted a good long while with a mix of Balts, West Slavs, and East Slavs.
    - ufocia 3y ago
      The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth being a federation was hardly a mix. Also, despite the union's somewhat long existence, it was the union's multiculturalism that arguably led to its demise.
      - asveikau 3y ago
        No sir, there was a mix. Any time you see a Lithuanian surname with "-auskas" it's because of exposure to Polish culture. There were tons of Poles in Vilnius. And Lithuanian aristocracy became rulers of Poland, starting with Jogaila. But the most ridiculous thing is that multiculturalism killed it. It was partitioned by foreign imperial powers, eg. split between Russia and Germanic powers.
        int_19h 3y ago
        I would also argue that Poland being culturally dominant in the union, and eventually translating it to political dominance (of e.g. Roman Catholics over Eastern Orthodox) severely diminished the original GDL multiculturalism, which was much more pluricentric and religiously tolerant. And that, arguably, was one of the causes of its eventual demise - e.g. would Ukraine have rebelled if they didn't perceive themselves as second-class citizens in Rzeczpospolita? And if it didn't, would Russia be able to eventually take over half of Poland?
- wormik 3y ago
  Read this https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1930-1938-the-wilderness/the-munich-agreement/ https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1930-1938-th... It might shape your view a bit
  - ufocia 3y ago
    Not really, the Brits underestimated the Germans and Central Europe in general was sacrificed on the altar of presumingly keeping the war out of the West.
NeoTar 3y ago
Yeah - If singular means distinct, and even setting aside Slovak, then Czech is part of the West Slavic language family and my Polish-speaking partner says there is a degree of mutual intelligibility.
- imp0cat 3y ago
  Yes, they sound very similar, but (because of historical reasons) the spelling is quite different (multiple letters in Polish vs accents/diacritics in Czech).
  - ufocia 3y ago
    They probably sound as similar to each other as German does to Danish.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      I'd say that's roughly correct. Czech and Slovak have a different sound, melody. Czechs and Slovaks tend to underestimate the differences, because they largely understand each other. But that's to a large degree thanks to a large amount of interchange and exposure. These days, many young Czechs without exposure to Slovak often understand only very little Slovak.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ufocia 3y ago

You're whitewashing at least the WWII era. The Czecho-Slovak government capitulated pretty quickly after Germany's demands, ..., and the country was used to support Germany's was efforts. TBH, they did not receive a whole lot of support from their prior allies, to say the least, ahead of the capitulation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Czechoslovak_Republic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Czechoslovak_Republic As an aside, hopefully the relative lack of support for Ukraine does not have similar outcomes. There are some significant similarities between the two.

The_Colonel 3y ago
> TBH, they did not receive a whole lot of support from their prior allies, to say the least, ahead of the capitulation. The "support" Czechoslovakia received from the western allies was an order to capitulate to German demands. As a reminder, this was the situation in 1938: https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u314/erding/Cz_map_150339.jpg https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u314/erding/Cz_map_15... The situation was much more hopeless than e.g. Ukraine was/is in. The Czech part was almost completely surrounded by Germany (controlling Austria and Silesia). Slovak part had a long border with Nazi-allied Hungary. Poland was not friendly at the time (taking part in the partition). The only kinda friendly neighbor was the tiny sliver of border in the east with Romania. If the Czechoslovakia decided to fight, it would be accused of aggression by the western powers (who basically declared Germany is in the right in Munich).
- ufocia 3y ago
  The claim of "participation" in the so called partition is inflammatory. You make it sound like Poland was a party to some kind of an agreement to dissolve Czechoslovakia, when there is no evidence of that, especially in retrospect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_bo... I agree that the Czechoslovakian situation was less hopeful than that of Ukraine, at least for the moment.
  - AmalgatedAmoeba 3y ago

mikrl 3y ago

A large part of Švejk’s humor comes from the multilingual nature of the Austro-Hungarian empire at that time. The common soldiers speak Czech amongst themselves, German to the commanding officers, and a drunken old Polish colonel butchers both languages while giving them a pep talk. There are also miscommunications with Hungarians and Tatars. Central Europe is heavily multicultural and multilingual, even in 1914, but there are still strong national identities; because of, not despite.

yreg 3y ago
Some parts of it used to be more multicultural and multilingual than they are now. Bratislava was 36% German, 33% Slovak and 29% Hungarian in the 1919 census. Now it's ~90% Slovak.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Not some, pretty much all of Czechia and Slovakia were much more multicultural back then than now. Germans weren't just in Sudetenland, but was a significant minority in many small towns. Same with Hungarians (just in Slovakia). Now there are almost no Germans or Jews in either of them.
talkingtab 3y ago
It is an interesting thing to think about. It appears to me (an outsider) that the Czech identity is very strong. Why is that? Especially in the face of the occupation by the Germans and Russians since what 1938 or something? And the Velvet Revolution seems (again as an outsider) just an amazing thing. What role does having a separate language play? And the multiculturalism. In the US we have such a great homogeneity. If I drive into Rhode Island I don't find another language or another culture. It is not like driving from France into the Nederlands for example.

hilbert42 3y ago

I think you're onto something. I don't speak Czech but I've been there a number of times and I know people who live there. When Hašek wrote Švejk the Czechs were surrounded and influenced by vastly different nations—the crumbling remnants of the Austro-Hungarian Empire—which they were part of—the Russian Empire and Germany—both of which were in chaos after WWI. Even today they're still surrounded but at least now they're an independent nation with their own language so perhaps it's not surprising what comes out of them is quite unique. It's quite some years since I saw Closely Watched Trains with English subtitles and it had a huge impact on me. It's one of those films that one cannot get out of one's mind for days. In its own understated way it's a great film and it's not surprising that it was a Czech production. Its ending upset me greatly because whilst its story was fiction, it reminded me of similar tragic scenarios that were played out for real many times during WWII (it seems to me one of the purposes of the film was to remind us of the fact). BTW, when I first went to Czechoslovakia it was still under communist rule and the only practical (easiest) way to get from Vienna to Prague was by train from Franz-Josefs-Bahnhof and Emperor Franz Joseph Railway line. For some reason seeming known to the communists we had to use this single track line instead of the more modern dual track line via Brüno. I mention it because the Franz Joseph Railway was a once-in-a-lifetime experience to travel on, the track was in such terrible condition that one thought the train would derail any moment and the train only did about 30km/h max. After Communism fell the track via Brüno was opened up and although a much longer route the trip only took half as long.

foobarian 3y ago
When I went there first it was also still under communist rule, and the thing I still remember the most is that bread loaves commonly sold in the grocery stores had the price embossed into the crust (IIRC "5 Kčs"). Centrally controlled economies eh? So stable that it was practical to make price stamps distributed to bakeries. I wish I could get my hands on one of these brands...
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  You reminded me of my own childhood. Yes, 5 Kčs was a standard price. I was not yet 13 when the no-longer-Communist Czechoslovak government liberalized the prices. Back then, I was profoundly unsettled by the idea that the same loaf of bread could cost a different amount of money in two different stores. It felt as unnatural as having multiple birthdays.