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If we're going to arbitrarily categorize groups and order them by attention to detail, the canonical listing is: - docs - tester - dba - projec

If we're going to arbitrarily categorize groups and order them by attention to detail, the canonical listing is: - docs - tester - dba - project manager - dev - manager But given the state of the industry it's possible you've never worked with anyone in the first several groups. All kidding aside, your problem sounds like it's rooted in a lack of trust leading to breakdown of communication. The proposal to talk LESS to the people that you already don't see as "on your team" will inevitably perpetuate the cycle. > All a developer needs is more rigorous requirements You may be under the impression that your job is to talk to machines, but it's really not. Your job is to talk to people and develop that rigorous specification collaboratively.

sublinear 3y ago
> But given the state of the industry it's possible you've never worked with anyone in the first several groups. I have. I don't agree with your list and am taking it as a joke. DBAs, "managers", and "project managers" typically have plenty of dev experience. Everyone should be in the loop as much as possible. It's more often than not non-devs will miss tons of detail and oversimplify to the detriment of the project. > You may be under the impression that your job is to talk to machines, but it's really not. Your job is to talk to people and develop that rigorous specification collaboratively. >> The solution I've seen work very well is fewer meetings with clients and other stakeholders and more meetings with developers I think you might have missed something I wrote. :) I don't think we disagree and love collaborating with diligent non-devs who will trust the expertise of their dev team while giving their own feedback when compromises need to be made. The question is simply who they need to spend more time with to get that good result. Every project is a little different, but more time with devs is usually the answer in my experience.

sublinear 3y ago

> But given the state of the industry it's possible you've never worked with anyone in the first several groups. I have. I don't agree with your list and am taking it as a joke. DBAs, "managers", and "project managers" typically have plenty of dev experience. Everyone should be in the loop as much as possible. It's more often than not non-devs will miss tons of detail and oversimplify to the detriment of the project. > You may be under the impression that your job is to talk to machines, but it's really not. Your job is to talk to people and develop that rigorous specification collaboratively. >> The solution I've seen work very well is fewer meetings with clients and other stakeholders and more meetings with developers I think you might have missed something I wrote. :) I don't think we disagree and love collaborating with diligent non-devs who will trust the expertise of their dev team while giving their own feedback when compromises need to be made. The question is simply who they need to spend more time with to get that good result. Every project is a little different, but more time with devs is usually the answer in my experience.