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I think I missed the meaning of the quote. Skyscrapers are not an indigenous lifestyle. I suppose that's not okay to bring up in this context? If someone put

I think I missed the meaning of the quote. Skyscrapers are not an indigenous lifestyle. I suppose that's not okay to bring up in this context? If someone put skyscrapers on the last Hawaiian island I'd be pretty upset about it. The entire population of the Earth should be. Can't we leave one thing undeveloped? But okay, maybe there is plenty of land to go around in Canada that looks the same as this land, so I could see that... How does any of that relate to indigenous people using granted land to build them? Does Canada have some law about that? I guess I don't see why this quote has any bearing for or against the development. It feels entirely out of place in the article. Just seems like an unrelated fact.

timmytokyo 3y ago
In a city completely inundated with skyscrapers, it's odd -- and maybe a bit telling -- that some people become concerned for the first time in their lives only once an indigenous nation decides to build a skyscraper.
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  I'm not sure you understand my question. I don't see from the quote that there is any concern. Where are you drawing that from?
- kareemm 3y ago
  There’s been tons of opposition to building up in Vancouver, especially outside of downtown. Opposition isn’t unique to indigenous builders. What is unique is that nimbys have a new arsenal of tactics to use as to why this isn’t a good idea eg “concrete skyscrapers aren’t the indigenous way so you shouldn’t build your project.”
- comeonbro 3y ago
  In a thread full of people with weird preconceptions talking past each-other, this is the most perfectly wrong statement anyone has made. The people you're talking about would strangle this entire country to death (and have) before allowing a single 3-story building to be built outside of the small areas that were already been zoned for it 80 years ago. The Canadian Indigenous identity issues tied up in this project are the only force that have ever been powerful enough to bludgeon them into submission, just this one time.
  - timmytokyo 3y ago
    You're making my point. I was responding to this comment: >Skyscrapers are not an indigenous lifestyle. I suppose that's not okay to bring up in this context? If people are going to oppose this project, don't do it on the basis of some vaguely bigoted notion that "these skyscrapers don't match the indigenous lifestyle". As if that's the reason the project's opponents are opposing it. It's clearly a smokescreen being deployed because they actually dislike the project for NIMBY reasons (e.g., "it'll block my view", "it'll reduce the value of my nearby properties"). (Whether the commenter I'm responding to actually believes this is immaterial. The article quoted a local government official who basically said the same thing.)
    - trimethylpurine 3y ago
      Skyscrapers not being indigenous has no bearing on whether they should be built or not. I think we all agree on that. Here's what's really bothering me. How did you arrive at the conclusion that the quote is implication of opposition to this development? Aside from the author of the article not so subtly injecting that implication, with no context, there's literally nothing to indicate that.
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  I get concerned when anyone builds a skyscraper. It's typically purported to increase density and thereby create affordable housing. What actually happens is that I still can't afford anything in the skyscrapers, even in non major metros, and I'm in the top 1% of earners. I guess affordable only applies to the top half of a percent? Destroying land to build them, I don't care who's land, is typically in opposition to environmental efforts. So before you say it's not my business, stop and consider that this is everyone's business. And using minorities as a scapegoat through what might be an underhanded deal might be pretty disgusting. Since I don't know which it is, I'm asking.
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    Notice that asking questions is downvoted. Horrifying. Must be someone very rich that wants another skyscraper apartment that the rest of us can't afford, no matter how many lives they ruin.
ivan_gammel 3y ago
>Can't we leave one thing undeveloped? Sure. Undevelop your own land and that will solve the problem.
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  I don't own the last Hawaiian island, but I'm thankful someone who does hasn't developed it. If they did and then "undeveloped" it, that wouldn't much help. Right? The last island will have been destroyed for future generations to study and enjoy. Not being Canadian, I have no clue what the context is. This might be the last of a unique piece of nature, or it could be the first acre of an endless desert. That context changes the meaning quite a bit, doesn't it? I'm not Italian, but I'd be upset if Italians bulldozed Pompeii. It's a world heritage site! Some things belong to everyone and are worth preserving. I'll gladly "undevelop" and take compensation to move if a temple was discovered under my house. So your comment has no meaning. I sure will "undevelop" my land, and since the law would force me, we can see that society as a whole had voted that I should, in certain cases.
  - downut 3y ago
    If the island is privately owned then hard to see how "future generations" will be able to study and enjoy it. Maybe, but probably not, eh? That's the point of it being privately owned. Now if the State of Hawaii were to assert eminent domain, acquire it at fair market value, and then turn it into public park lands as designated wilderness, well that might work for your intent, I think.
    - trimethylpurine 3y ago
      The island is owned by the natives. And it's still a tragedy to the entire world if they decide to put skyscrapers on it. It's the last bit of untouched wilderness in a unique ecosystem. This story doesn't make a case for not telling people what to do. It makes a case for not trusting natives to protect the wilderness. Or maybe not. I don't have context. I am asking a question.
  - 3y ago
nejkbnek 3y ago
A modern "Indigenous lifestyle" means a lot of things. There's no contradiction in Indigenous people wanting to preserve their historical traditions, crafts and practices while also adapting to the current state of the world. Most Native people in Canada live in cities now and face issues of racism and generational trauma from colonial government practices like Residential Schools and the 60s Scoop which sought to cut their connections to their culture. Developing land like this is a way for the tribe to generate revenue and take care of their members, but it's also a way for them to have meaningful input into the development process. They don't have some responsibility to leave the land as a pristine untouched wilderness, they can choose to develop it in a way that aligns with their values. I visited a museum in the North once where they were talking about preserving the practice of carving giant canoes, to travel south and trade with Europeans. It struck me how this practice was historical and important culturally, but it also arose out of colonial interactions in the past 500 years. Both can be true.
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  I'm wondering if you were talking to someone else but I can't figure out who. My question was pretty simple. How are you guys (commenters) drawing a connection between what the author quoted, and the assumption that the person being quoted opposes the building project? What context are you using to correlate those? Here's a logic diagram to help. Assume P1 is true, since that's what he's saying: P1: indigenous lifestyle is not skyscrapers. P2: skyscrapers can be built by indigenous people. C: indigenous people can't build skyscrapers The above is nonsensical. Your conclusion is in direct opposition to the premise. Introducing this person's quote to the article was totally irrelevant unless you're aware of some context that is missing from the story.
faeriechangling 3y ago
Sure skyscrapers are an indigenous lifestyle. They build them, invest in them, live in them. Do you think indigenous people in 2024 are going to all go fish for salmon and live in teepee’s? I remember on TV once this older indigenous guy promoting natural resource development he thought would create indigenous jobs going on about “Back in the old times, my people hunted the buffalo. Now my people hunt a new buffalo, called the loonie”
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  Obviously I don't think that. You didn't read my comment before replying. I asked a question. Did you get that far? I'm wondering about context. How do you know the quoted guy is opposed to the development.

timmytokyo 3y ago

In a city completely inundated with skyscrapers, it's odd -- and maybe a bit telling -- that some people become concerned for the first time in their lives only once an indigenous nation decides to build a skyscraper.

trimethylpurine 3y ago
I'm not sure you understand my question. I don't see from the quote that there is any concern. Where are you drawing that from?
kareemm 3y ago
There’s been tons of opposition to building up in Vancouver, especially outside of downtown. Opposition isn’t unique to indigenous builders. What is unique is that nimbys have a new arsenal of tactics to use as to why this isn’t a good idea eg “concrete skyscrapers aren’t the indigenous way so you shouldn’t build your project.”
comeonbro 3y ago
In a thread full of people with weird preconceptions talking past each-other, this is the most perfectly wrong statement anyone has made. The people you're talking about would strangle this entire country to death (and have) before allowing a single 3-story building to be built outside of the small areas that were already been zoned for it 80 years ago. The Canadian Indigenous identity issues tied up in this project are the only force that have ever been powerful enough to bludgeon them into submission, just this one time.
- timmytokyo 3y ago
  You're making my point. I was responding to this comment: >Skyscrapers are not an indigenous lifestyle. I suppose that's not okay to bring up in this context? If people are going to oppose this project, don't do it on the basis of some vaguely bigoted notion that "these skyscrapers don't match the indigenous lifestyle". As if that's the reason the project's opponents are opposing it. It's clearly a smokescreen being deployed because they actually dislike the project for NIMBY reasons (e.g., "it'll block my view", "it'll reduce the value of my nearby properties"). (Whether the commenter I'm responding to actually believes this is immaterial. The article quoted a local government official who basically said the same thing.)
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    Skyscrapers not being indigenous has no bearing on whether they should be built or not. I think we all agree on that. Here's what's really bothering me. How did you arrive at the conclusion that the quote is implication of opposition to this development? Aside from the author of the article not so subtly injecting that implication, with no context, there's literally nothing to indicate that.
trimethylpurine 3y ago
I get concerned when anyone builds a skyscraper. It's typically purported to increase density and thereby create affordable housing. What actually happens is that I still can't afford anything in the skyscrapers, even in non major metros, and I'm in the top 1% of earners. I guess affordable only applies to the top half of a percent? Destroying land to build them, I don't care who's land, is typically in opposition to environmental efforts. So before you say it's not my business, stop and consider that this is everyone's business. And using minorities as a scapegoat through what might be an underhanded deal might be pretty disgusting. Since I don't know which it is, I'm asking.
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  Notice that asking questions is downvoted. Horrifying. Must be someone very rich that wants another skyscraper apartment that the rest of us can't afford, no matter how many lives they ruin.

ivan_gammel 3y ago

>Can't we leave one thing undeveloped? Sure. Undevelop your own land and that will solve the problem.

trimethylpurine 3y ago
I don't own the last Hawaiian island, but I'm thankful someone who does hasn't developed it. If they did and then "undeveloped" it, that wouldn't much help. Right? The last island will have been destroyed for future generations to study and enjoy. Not being Canadian, I have no clue what the context is. This might be the last of a unique piece of nature, or it could be the first acre of an endless desert. That context changes the meaning quite a bit, doesn't it? I'm not Italian, but I'd be upset if Italians bulldozed Pompeii. It's a world heritage site! Some things belong to everyone and are worth preserving. I'll gladly "undevelop" and take compensation to move if a temple was discovered under my house. So your comment has no meaning. I sure will "undevelop" my land, and since the law would force me, we can see that society as a whole had voted that I should, in certain cases.
- downut 3y ago
  If the island is privately owned then hard to see how "future generations" will be able to study and enjoy it. Maybe, but probably not, eh? That's the point of it being privately owned. Now if the State of Hawaii were to assert eminent domain, acquire it at fair market value, and then turn it into public park lands as designated wilderness, well that might work for your intent, I think.
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    The island is owned by the natives. And it's still a tragedy to the entire world if they decide to put skyscrapers on it. It's the last bit of untouched wilderness in a unique ecosystem. This story doesn't make a case for not telling people what to do. It makes a case for not trusting natives to protect the wilderness. Or maybe not. I don't have context. I am asking a question.
- 3y ago

nejkbnek 3y ago

A modern "Indigenous lifestyle" means a lot of things. There's no contradiction in Indigenous people wanting to preserve their historical traditions, crafts and practices while also adapting to the current state of the world. Most Native people in Canada live in cities now and face issues of racism and generational trauma from colonial government practices like Residential Schools and the 60s Scoop which sought to cut their connections to their culture. Developing land like this is a way for the tribe to generate revenue and take care of their members, but it's also a way for them to have meaningful input into the development process. They don't have some responsibility to leave the land as a pristine untouched wilderness, they can choose to develop it in a way that aligns with their values. I visited a museum in the North once where they were talking about preserving the practice of carving giant canoes, to travel south and trade with Europeans. It struck me how this practice was historical and important culturally, but it also arose out of colonial interactions in the past 500 years. Both can be true.

trimethylpurine 3y ago
I'm wondering if you were talking to someone else but I can't figure out who. My question was pretty simple. How are you guys (commenters) drawing a connection between what the author quoted, and the assumption that the person being quoted opposes the building project? What context are you using to correlate those? Here's a logic diagram to help. Assume P1 is true, since that's what he's saying: P1: indigenous lifestyle is not skyscrapers. P2: skyscrapers can be built by indigenous people. C: indigenous people can't build skyscrapers The above is nonsensical. Your conclusion is in direct opposition to the premise. Introducing this person's quote to the article was totally irrelevant unless you're aware of some context that is missing from the story.

faeriechangling 3y ago

Sure skyscrapers are an indigenous lifestyle. They build them, invest in them, live in them. Do you think indigenous people in 2024 are going to all go fish for salmon and live in teepee’s? I remember on TV once this older indigenous guy promoting natural resource development he thought would create indigenous jobs going on about “Back in the old times, my people hunted the buffalo. Now my people hunt a new buffalo, called the loonie”

trimethylpurine 3y ago
Obviously I don't think that. You didn't read my comment before replying. I asked a question. Did you get that far? I'm wondering about context. How do you know the quoted guy is opposed to the development.