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Israel does a lot worthy of condemnation, much of which is not justified by Hamas's actions. However it is important to recognise the support Hamas recieves fr

by TOMDM 3y ago

Israel does a lot worthy of condemnation, much of which is not justified by Hamas's actions. However it is important to recognise the support Hamas recieves from the civilian Palestinian population. Hamas isn't supported by the majority of Gazan citizens, however their actions on Oct 7 are. > Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer. > Fifty-two percent of Gazans and 85% of West Bank respondents - or 72% of Palestinian respondents overall - voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war. Only 11% of Palestinian voiced satisfaction with PA President Mahmoud Abbas. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palesti... Of course some of this can likely be explained by fear of reprisal when speaking against Hamas, however the desire to perpetuate war against the Israeli people is commonplace in Palestine.

jedimind 3y ago
>However it is important to recognise the support Hamas recieves from the civilian Palestinian population. Hamas isn't supported by the majority of Gazan citizens, however their actions on Oct 7 are. "2023 marks deadliest year on record for children in the occupied West Bank" - Save the Children, published: 18 SEPTEMBER 2023. >Of course some of this can likely be explained by fear of reprisal when speaking against Hamas, however the desire to perpetuate war against the Israeli people is commonplace in Palestine. Which is completely understandable and justified, it is the natural desire & reaction to 75+ years of brutal settler colonialism with apartheid and ethnic-cleansing.
- TOMDM 3y ago
  Hatred for your oppresors is rational. The desire to continue attacks that intentionally maximise civilian casualties as part of a war you are doomed to lose is not. If Palestine could end its attacks on Israel, almost all international support for Israel would dry up within 6 months. The symmetric attacks that justify the next are doomed to continue forever until both sides can hold back. Hamas will never be that partner in peace for Israel. Egypt and Jordan both managed to fight with Israel and come to a lasting peace, and I feel like insisting that Palestinians are incapable of the same robs them of any agency. I of course give Israel the same accountability. The settlements are unjustifiable. The response to Oct 7 needs a huge amount of investigation in order ensure all has been done to minimise civilian casualties. The same way Palestine needs to stop firing rockets for a lasting peace to be possible, Israel will likely need to take a couple terrorist attacks on the chin once a feasible partner for peace in Palestine has been found.
  - jedimind 3y ago
    >If Palestine could end its attacks on Israel, almost all international support for Israel would dry up within 6 months. That's a blatant lie and you know it. Since Israel can murder 14K+ children and still receive support as we are witnessing, your proposed strategy most certainly will not yield the claimed results. >Hamas will never be that partner in peace for Israel. So why did Israel finance and support Hamas? That's because Israel had never any real interest in peace, it's a settler colonial project which wants all of the land with ideally no Palestinians in it, for which there is more than enough evidence. >Egypt and Jordan both managed to fight with Israel and come to a lasting peace, and I feel like insisting that Palestinians are incapable of the same robs them of any agency. The framing of this is just outright laughable. Israel holds all of the power and thus bears the prime responsibility. >I of course give Israel the same accountability. The settlements are unjustifiable. The response to Oct 7 needs a huge amount of investigation in order ensure all has been done to minimise civilian casualties. I'm not even going to entertain this utter dishonesty for a second. They've murdered 14K+ children, you can keep roleplaying as hard as you want but anyone who has seen a fraction of the evidence knows that there is plenty of genocidal intent documented by south africa's ICJ documents and they acted upon that. >The same way Palestine needs to stop firing rockets for a lasting peace to be possible, Israel will likely need to take a couple terrorist attacks on the chin once a feasible partner for peace in Palestine has been found. You are confusing cause & effect, but you already know that. The rockets are being fired because Israel has brutally oppressed, murdered and ethnically cleansed Palestinians for 75+ years with near impunity. Give me a break with your soft zionist BS manipulation.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      But what effect does firing rockets - or, for that matter, massacring a thousand civilians in their homes - actually has on the outcome of this conflict? It's one thing to justify something as military necessity, but it's hard to see any in Hamas' actions. It certainly doesn't get them any closer to getting what they want. But it does cost them support that they would otherwise have. Furthermore, realistically, the best that Palestinians can hope for is some form of two-state solutions - "from the river to the sea" is not going to happen. But it's that much harder to argue for a Palestinian state if Hamas are the ones running it, given the kind of governance they have demonstrated internally, and the kind of brutality we've seen on Oct 7.
lupusreal 3y ago
What's the point of using elections when we can just use your crystal ball to determine the true level of support a government has?
- TOMDM 3y ago
  I'm not sure you've understood me. Based on polling, Gazans don't support Hamas overall, just their actions on Oct 7. I would never justify forgoing elections in favor of relying on polling, as polling is only indicative of broad sentiment and not precise enough.

by TOMDM 3y ago

jedimind 3y ago

>However it is important to recognise the support Hamas recieves from the civilian Palestinian population. Hamas isn't supported by the majority of Gazan citizens, however their actions on Oct 7 are. "2023 marks deadliest year on record for children in the occupied West Bank" - Save the Children, published: 18 SEPTEMBER 2023. >Of course some of this can likely be explained by fear of reprisal when speaking against Hamas, however the desire to perpetuate war against the Israeli people is commonplace in Palestine. Which is completely understandable and justified, it is the natural desire & reaction to 75+ years of brutal settler colonialism with apartheid and ethnic-cleansing.

TOMDM 3y ago
Hatred for your oppresors is rational. The desire to continue attacks that intentionally maximise civilian casualties as part of a war you are doomed to lose is not. If Palestine could end its attacks on Israel, almost all international support for Israel would dry up within 6 months. The symmetric attacks that justify the next are doomed to continue forever until both sides can hold back. Hamas will never be that partner in peace for Israel. Egypt and Jordan both managed to fight with Israel and come to a lasting peace, and I feel like insisting that Palestinians are incapable of the same robs them of any agency. I of course give Israel the same accountability. The settlements are unjustifiable. The response to Oct 7 needs a huge amount of investigation in order ensure all has been done to minimise civilian casualties. The same way Palestine needs to stop firing rockets for a lasting peace to be possible, Israel will likely need to take a couple terrorist attacks on the chin once a feasible partner for peace in Palestine has been found.
- jedimind 3y ago
  >If Palestine could end its attacks on Israel, almost all international support for Israel would dry up within 6 months. That's a blatant lie and you know it. Since Israel can murder 14K+ children and still receive support as we are witnessing, your proposed strategy most certainly will not yield the claimed results. >Hamas will never be that partner in peace for Israel. So why did Israel finance and support Hamas? That's because Israel had never any real interest in peace, it's a settler colonial project which wants all of the land with ideally no Palestinians in it, for which there is more than enough evidence. >Egypt and Jordan both managed to fight with Israel and come to a lasting peace, and I feel like insisting that Palestinians are incapable of the same robs them of any agency. The framing of this is just outright laughable. Israel holds all of the power and thus bears the prime responsibility. >I of course give Israel the same accountability. The settlements are unjustifiable. The response to Oct 7 needs a huge amount of investigation in order ensure all has been done to minimise civilian casualties. I'm not even going to entertain this utter dishonesty for a second. They've murdered 14K+ children, you can keep roleplaying as hard as you want but anyone who has seen a fraction of the evidence knows that there is plenty of genocidal intent documented by south africa's ICJ documents and they acted upon that. >The same way Palestine needs to stop firing rockets for a lasting peace to be possible, Israel will likely need to take a couple terrorist attacks on the chin once a feasible partner for peace in Palestine has been found. You are confusing cause & effect, but you already know that. The rockets are being fired because Israel has brutally oppressed, murdered and ethnically cleansed Palestinians for 75+ years with near impunity. Give me a break with your soft zionist BS manipulation.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    But what effect does firing rockets - or, for that matter, massacring a thousand civilians in their homes - actually has on the outcome of this conflict? It's one thing to justify something as military necessity, but it's hard to see any in Hamas' actions. It certainly doesn't get them any closer to getting what they want. But it does cost them support that they would otherwise have. Furthermore, realistically, the best that Palestinians can hope for is some form of two-state solutions - "from the river to the sea" is not going to happen. But it's that much harder to argue for a Palestinian state if Hamas are the ones running it, given the kind of governance they have demonstrated internally, and the kind of brutality we've seen on Oct 7.

lupusreal 3y ago

What's the point of using elections when we can just use your crystal ball to determine the true level of support a government has?

TOMDM 3y ago
I'm not sure you've understood me. Based on polling, Gazans don't support Hamas overall, just their actions on Oct 7. I would never justify forgoing elections in favor of relying on polling, as polling is only indicative of broad sentiment and not precise enough.