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That logic doesn't check. How did they get their jobs in the first place if not for their academic credentials and research? Did they just apply with a blank re

by ajcp 3y ago

That logic doesn't check. How did they get their jobs in the first place if not for their academic credentials and research? Did they just apply with a blank resume? Maybe the skills they use at their jobs one can gain outside of academia for nothing, but that still won't get them hired. "Every rich person I've met has said money doesn't matter." Okay, but there's only one way for them to prove it...

johnnyanmac 3y ago
If your metric is compensation, which is the metric for many here, then acedemia isn't financially worth it for software engineers. You can check any "entry level" research position and compare it to a position that required 4-5 years of industry experience to compare. Unless you were researching a very hot or soon to be hot field (which requires a bit of foresight), you're generally not going to end up better off by spending those extra years studying such a hyper specific topic. as a CS/SWE, only go for post-grad if convenient (e.g. Some schools had a 4+1 program for a MS. That extra year probably does pay off), if you have a very specific topic you want to work in, or if you want to work in acedemia specifically.
- ajcp 3y ago
  We're not talking about software engineers, we're talking about research scientist and engineers lured away from academia to work in the private sector. To your point I agree and don't know of any software engineer aspirant who thinks they need even a 4+1. But again, that's not the demographic we're discussing. There's a reason SV is hiring out of academia: because they can't hire the same minds out of a 4-year program, and certainly not off the street. In this case it shows the value of those programs that got them there, so for these former academics to report, as OP is suggesting, that it was a waste of time/money seems to hold no logic.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >There's a reason SV is hiring out of academia: because they can't hire the same minds out of a 4-year program, and certainly not off the stree I half agree. The degree holds some value (and for some schools they can even influence the curriculum to their needs), but value proposition comes more from a supply of people who 1) have sole semblance of fundamentals 2) an ability to see a long term study through (which is why every job, even many that don't need a degree, put up a Bachelors as a requirement when supply > demand) and most importantly, 3) aren't a training cost for the company itself. I'm sure well chosen apprentice could be trained by a company for a single year and would be comparably productive to any new grad, but no one really wants to train talent directly. With academia right there there is no need to, at best you have a set, 3 month internship to Gauge value. It's the economically best decision (arguably. If everyone wants to make offers of 200k to a top student instead of pay 80k for an apprenticeship, is it truly worth it?), but not necessarily the best from a company quality standpoint. But we know which of those 2 win out 9/10 times.

by ajcp 3y ago

johnnyanmac 3y ago

If your metric is compensation, which is the metric for many here, then acedemia isn't financially worth it for software engineers. You can check any "entry level" research position and compare it to a position that required 4-5 years of industry experience to compare. Unless you were researching a very hot or soon to be hot field (which requires a bit of foresight), you're generally not going to end up better off by spending those extra years studying such a hyper specific topic. as a CS/SWE, only go for post-grad if convenient (e.g. Some schools had a 4+1 program for a MS. That extra year probably does pay off), if you have a very specific topic you want to work in, or if you want to work in acedemia specifically.

ajcp 3y ago
We're not talking about software engineers, we're talking about research scientist and engineers lured away from academia to work in the private sector. To your point I agree and don't know of any software engineer aspirant who thinks they need even a 4+1. But again, that's not the demographic we're discussing. There's a reason SV is hiring out of academia: because they can't hire the same minds out of a 4-year program, and certainly not off the street. In this case it shows the value of those programs that got them there, so for these former academics to report, as OP is suggesting, that it was a waste of time/money seems to hold no logic.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >There's a reason SV is hiring out of academia: because they can't hire the same minds out of a 4-year program, and certainly not off the stree I half agree. The degree holds some value (and for some schools they can even influence the curriculum to their needs), but value proposition comes more from a supply of people who 1) have sole semblance of fundamentals 2) an ability to see a long term study through (which is why every job, even many that don't need a degree, put up a Bachelors as a requirement when supply > demand) and most importantly, 3) aren't a training cost for the company itself. I'm sure well chosen apprentice could be trained by a company for a single year and would be comparably productive to any new grad, but no one really wants to train talent directly. With academia right there there is no need to, at best you have a set, 3 month internship to Gauge value. It's the economically best decision (arguably. If everyone wants to make offers of 200k to a top student instead of pay 80k for an apprenticeship, is it truly worth it?), but not necessarily the best from a company quality standpoint. But we know which of those 2 win out 9/10 times.