5 ms·

In theory, I agree. In practice, college is a very useful signal. And it's not just the coursework from the college major. College demonstrates a variety of

by earl 14y ago

In theory, I agree. In practice, college is a very useful signal. And it's not just the coursework from the college major. College demonstrates a variety of soft skills: time management, the ability to plan and meet deadlines, the ability to work on what's necessary when it's necessary, a willingness to suck it up and do some unglamorous but necessary drudge work, etc. I've worked with a variety of people that haven't gone to college and with few exceptions they were lacking in these areas. Obviously all those skills can be learned elsewhere, but as a hiring manager, it's a major time investment to try and suss that out whereas having a college degree with good grades means more likely than not that the candidate possesses those skills.

jmathai 14y ago
4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals. I agree that some things like research can't be done online. But I don't think those will remain at the university either. Graduate/research degrees must represent such a small % of a university's revenue that when the majority goes away they simply won't be able to survive. Just ask the RIAA if they can survive by selling mp3s when they're used to selling overpriced CDs.
- lifeisstillgood 14y ago
  Graduate / research degrees are a university universities exist solely for the purpose of enabling professors to do further scientific research to do this they need: * a supply of intelligent grunts (phd candidates) * an administration capable of turning grant money into a well stocked lab and * a supply of very rich young people who will be taught the basics of science such that when the young rich people run the country they might get something right unfortunately we have forgotten that one genius well supported can provide value and economic growth for a whole planet (who invented steam engines, fire, wheels, transistors) - and million English graduates wont make up for it. I would be perfectly supportive of a university system that publically funded scientific (empirical, provable) courses, had industry funding for vocational work (engineering) and left arts to do what they have always done. But saying let's get rid of the lot? Nonsense.
- lordlicorice 14y ago
  At research universities most of the budget comes from research, and most of the work in research gets done by grad students. Undergrad programs are an afterthought.
  - indiecore 14y ago
    Well undergraduate programs are a thought in that they are needed to produce candidates for the graduate programs that provide value. And from what I can see most of the budget comes from and is devoted to college football.
    - maxerickson 14y ago
      I bet if you broke it down you would find that most research dollars are spent at schools with highly visible sports teams that are self funding. I believe this mostly because the big conferences have fantastic TV deals and huge research schools.
    - jmj42 14y ago
      > And from what I can see most of the budget comes from and is devoted to college football. This couldn't be further from the truth. I'm unaware of any major universities in which sports money comes from or is applied to general budgets. Athletic departments are generally self-contained and there is very little (if any) financial overlap into the academic portions of a university. Payroll, and even scholarships, are paid from athletic income, and any left over is not put into general budget. Personally, I wish the myth of "the cost to the university/tax payers/etc" would go away.
  - Symmetry 14y ago
    That's only true for STEM fields, though. Outside of STEM, department's budget is actually correlated with teaching undergrads, so they tend to do a better job of it. Which is why so many undergrads end up switching majors away from STEM in college.
- rdtsc 14y ago
  You are both right in some respect. First of all college teaches knowledge that you would need relevant to your major. Then college is a signal that you can learn stuff that is required (but not necessarily that you would like to learn). For example sometimes you might just not know what you need to know. Like math. I am glad I was forced to take calculus because I find it useful in my programming job, years later. Taking that made it easy to take understand and analyze algorithms. I am also glad I was forced to take English and Critical Thinking. I stuck with it for 4 years. That also tells something about me to a potential employer (maybe the wrong thing, maybe it shows I can be a submissive grunt that will willingly follow orders, or maybe it shows I can get stuff done to a future startup partner...) So, taking costs aside, I think there is some value in college. Now bringing the costs back into it, I agree with you, that all this should probably somehow be obtained for less than $100k. There is a terrible inefficiency some place if it actually costs that much. There is terrible waste some place. I remember my University was building large stadiums, and huge gyms with lazy rivers and other crap in them, while some colleges couldn't afford paper to print exams on and was using single spaced double-sided, small fonts.
  - mkramlich 14y ago
    > , I agree with you, that all this should probably somehow be obtained for less than $100k. There are efforts underway to provide the education, filtering, verification and signaling services for $0-10k per person. It can be done. We just have to cut out all the fat.
- saturdaysaint 14y ago
  "4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals." This seems intuitively true - 4 yrs/50-100k looks like an unjustifiable expense - but efficiency is relative. If we don't have another way of systematically vetting knowledge workers, then talk of efficiency is moot. There's room for improvement/disruption, but the parent's response to the gp's "fuck college" sentiment was well measured and in keeping with the sentiment of the linked article.
- randomdata 14y ago
  I agree that some things like research can't be done online. I've heard this many times. Why is this? I get some research requires access to physical equipment that is out of reach of the common man, but it seems something like algorithmic research in the field of CS could often be done online.
- overgryphon 14y ago
  The median amount of debt is somewhere around 12k. 50-100k of debt is not at all required for an undergraduate degree. Anyone who chose that route had other options.
- rayiner 14y ago
  At research universities, undergraduate tuition represents a very small %-age of the university's revenue.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
davemel37 14y ago
College as an indicator is like using price as a deciding factor for a non-commodity purchase. It is a shortcut and excuse not to actually think, and do a little work to make the right decision. (Or you just resent the fact that you racked up all that student debt, and feel like others should struggle the same way you do/did.) Probably the most under-utilized, under-rated, and under-appreciated working class in America is students that either never graduated with an Accredited Degree due to religious school that was unaccredited, or couldn't afford college, or saw through the self-serving system that systematically rejects talent and attracts "Yes-Men." "we don't need no education. We don't need no thought control." - Christopher Columbus said that, and he discovered America (or something like that, I wouldn't know, I never graduated college.) My point is, I grew up reading books, I was raised in home that taught me to treat people respectfully, work hard, and focus my effort on personal development. I might not be perfect, but I don't need a piece of paper to prove my worth. Especially to someone who dismissively rejects people due to systematic and flawed reasoning, just because it makes their lives a little easier. News Flash Dude, if you are a recruiter, you are playing with peoples lives. Try to take it a little more seriously, and you will see, like everything else in life... You get what you put into it. (I didn't learn that in college either.) I know how it feels when enterprise companies reach out to you, recruit you, interview you and than ask, "Where did you get your degree from? From yeshiva? what's that? Oh, you learn about G-d and Stuff? actually it is mostly business and contract law? Yup, Yeshiva students spend 14 hours a day studying partnerships, responsibilities in business, and the different types of business relationships...But they are unemployable at public companies because they can't get "a bunch of old white people to accredit them." (Truth is, some yeshivos are accredited, and I did attend some college, but my point is that Mark Cuban is dead on with this post.)

by earl 14y ago

jmathai 14y ago

4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals. I agree that some things like research can't be done online. But I don't think those will remain at the university either. Graduate/research degrees must represent such a small % of a university's revenue that when the majority goes away they simply won't be able to survive. Just ask the RIAA if they can survive by selling mp3s when they're used to selling overpriced CDs.

lifeisstillgood 14y ago
Graduate / research degrees are a university universities exist solely for the purpose of enabling professors to do further scientific research to do this they need: * a supply of intelligent grunts (phd candidates) * an administration capable of turning grant money into a well stocked lab and * a supply of very rich young people who will be taught the basics of science such that when the young rich people run the country they might get something right unfortunately we have forgotten that one genius well supported can provide value and economic growth for a whole planet (who invented steam engines, fire, wheels, transistors) - and million English graduates wont make up for it. I would be perfectly supportive of a university system that publically funded scientific (empirical, provable) courses, had industry funding for vocational work (engineering) and left arts to do what they have always done. But saying let's get rid of the lot? Nonsense.
lordlicorice 14y ago
At research universities most of the budget comes from research, and most of the work in research gets done by grad students. Undergrad programs are an afterthought.
- indiecore 14y ago
  Well undergraduate programs are a thought in that they are needed to produce candidates for the graduate programs that provide value. And from what I can see most of the budget comes from and is devoted to college football.
  - maxerickson 14y ago
    I bet if you broke it down you would find that most research dollars are spent at schools with highly visible sports teams that are self funding. I believe this mostly because the big conferences have fantastic TV deals and huge research schools.
  - jmj42 14y ago
    > And from what I can see most of the budget comes from and is devoted to college football. This couldn't be further from the truth. I'm unaware of any major universities in which sports money comes from or is applied to general budgets. Athletic departments are generally self-contained and there is very little (if any) financial overlap into the academic portions of a university. Payroll, and even scholarships, are paid from athletic income, and any left over is not put into general budget. Personally, I wish the myth of "the cost to the university/tax payers/etc" would go away.
- Symmetry 14y ago
  That's only true for STEM fields, though. Outside of STEM, department's budget is actually correlated with teaching undergrads, so they tend to do a better job of it. Which is why so many undergrads end up switching majors away from STEM in college.
rdtsc 14y ago
You are both right in some respect. First of all college teaches knowledge that you would need relevant to your major. Then college is a signal that you can learn stuff that is required (but not necessarily that you would like to learn). For example sometimes you might just not know what you need to know. Like math. I am glad I was forced to take calculus because I find it useful in my programming job, years later. Taking that made it easy to take understand and analyze algorithms. I am also glad I was forced to take English and Critical Thinking. I stuck with it for 4 years. That also tells something about me to a potential employer (maybe the wrong thing, maybe it shows I can be a submissive grunt that will willingly follow orders, or maybe it shows I can get stuff done to a future startup partner...) So, taking costs aside, I think there is some value in college. Now bringing the costs back into it, I agree with you, that all this should probably somehow be obtained for less than $100k. There is a terrible inefficiency some place if it actually costs that much. There is terrible waste some place. I remember my University was building large stadiums, and huge gyms with lazy rivers and other crap in them, while some colleges couldn't afford paper to print exams on and was using single spaced double-sided, small fonts.
- mkramlich 14y ago
  > , I agree with you, that all this should probably somehow be obtained for less than $100k. There are efforts underway to provide the education, filtering, verification and signaling services for $0-10k per person. It can be done. We just have to cut out all the fat.
saturdaysaint 14y ago
"4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals." This seems intuitively true - 4 yrs/50-100k looks like an unjustifiable expense - but efficiency is relative. If we don't have another way of systematically vetting knowledge workers, then talk of efficiency is moot. There's room for improvement/disruption, but the parent's response to the gp's "fuck college" sentiment was well measured and in keeping with the sentiment of the linked article.
randomdata 14y ago
I agree that some things like research can't be done online. I've heard this many times. Why is this? I get some research requires access to physical equipment that is out of reach of the common man, but it seems something like algorithmic research in the field of CS could often be done online.
overgryphon 14y ago
The median amount of debt is somewhere around 12k. 50-100k of debt is not at all required for an undergraduate degree. Anyone who chose that route had other options.
rayiner 14y ago
At research universities, undergraduate tuition represents a very small %-age of the university's revenue.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

davemel37 14y ago

College as an indicator is like using price as a deciding factor for a non-commodity purchase. It is a shortcut and excuse not to actually think, and do a little work to make the right decision. (Or you just resent the fact that you racked up all that student debt, and feel like others should struggle the same way you do/did.) Probably the most under-utilized, under-rated, and under-appreciated working class in America is students that either never graduated with an Accredited Degree due to religious school that was unaccredited, or couldn't afford college, or saw through the self-serving system that systematically rejects talent and attracts "Yes-Men." "we don't need no education. We don't need no thought control." - Christopher Columbus said that, and he discovered America (or something like that, I wouldn't know, I never graduated college.) My point is, I grew up reading books, I was raised in home that taught me to treat people respectfully, work hard, and focus my effort on personal development. I might not be perfect, but I don't need a piece of paper to prove my worth. Especially to someone who dismissively rejects people due to systematic and flawed reasoning, just because it makes their lives a little easier. News Flash Dude, if you are a recruiter, you are playing with peoples lives. Try to take it a little more seriously, and you will see, like everything else in life... You get what you put into it. (I didn't learn that in college either.) I know how it feels when enterprise companies reach out to you, recruit you, interview you and than ask, "Where did you get your degree from? From yeshiva? what's that? Oh, you learn about G-d and Stuff? actually it is mostly business and contract law? Yup, Yeshiva students spend 14 hours a day studying partnerships, responsibilities in business, and the different types of business relationships...But they are unemployable at public companies because they can't get "a bunch of old white people to accredit them." (Truth is, some yeshivos are accredited, and I did attend some college, but my point is that Mark Cuban is dead on with this post.)