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The article calls it an "open secret" in the industry, but it isn't even much of a secret. Most companies have explicit "manage up or manage out" policies for e
by paxys 3y ago
The article calls it an "open secret" in the industry, but it isn't even much of a secret. Most companies have explicit "manage up or manage out" policies for engineers, which means that if you have been at a certain level for too many years you get fired and replaced by someone younger. They say you need to work hard and get promoted to senior staff/principal/director/VP, but then the promo budget says only 2 people in the org can get promoted to those ranks every year. So what about everyone else?
- antisthenes 3y ago> So what about everyone else? They probably just move laterally to another tech company with a decent pay bump. Not the worst outcome.
- paxys 3y agoDoesn't quite work as you'd expect if you are 50+ and applying as an SDE.
- 77pt77 3y agoNo. They get kicked out of the field. Like someone said, it's an open secret.
- panzagl 3y agoDepends on how you define 'the field'- if you mean SV cutting edge unicorn selling ad stuff, then yes. If you include some place like Lockheed Martin or Northrup Grumman doing boring non-cutting edge stuff like aerospace or signal analysis, then no.
- 77pt77 3y agoOf all the companies you chose those 2? Curiously I was specifically thinking of people that worked in LM. One worked there for decades, didn't want to manage people and they just kicked him to the curb.
- torginus 3y ago>doing boring non-cutting edge stuff like aerospace or signal analysis hehe, how the world has changed
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sterlind 3y agoso web apps are sexy and cutting edge, while sensor fusion is boring and stale? I'm not a defense contractor, but that take just seems wild. most of SV isn't cutting-edge tech. most SV devs are generalists.
- johnnyanmac 3y agoApparently. Why else were companies scooping up bootcamp grads for 200k+ to make yet another CRUD app? They clearly feel that investment will be worth it. Compensation of course isn't the best factor for determining cutting edge. Defense contractors for instance, can work on some truly novel tech but salaries in government has hard caps. But it is telling of something when the above scenario was true not too long ago.
- panzagl 3y agoYeah, I dropped my /s. Too many years of watching people do embedded, RF, flight control systems and whatnot for 20 years for half what FAANG was throwing at recent grads. Not that there isn't some truly inspiring engineering happening there, though IIRC correctly the people who first built that stuff weren't exactly spring chickens.
- torginus 3y agoI don't understand the obsession with being young - when the SR-71 Blackbird had its first flight, Kelly Johnson was 54 years old. I'm not old, but not that young anymore, and from what I've seen, there's a spectrum of ability in all age groups. And pay does not exactly line up with 'Value' produced (which itself is a nebulous concept)
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago> A recruiter told him that he wouldn’t be appealing to employers and opined that Six should be chief technology officer at this point in his career, not a software developer, Six says. I have been flat-out told that I should ask for less, because of my age. I have had recruiters hang up on me, as soon as they figured out my age. I gave up, after a while, (but I am still producing quite a bit of code -just for free). I guess that is considered an optimal outcome, by today's tech industry, but I am quite aware that I have the skills and experience to make other people millions. I have never been particularly interested in scooping up large piles of dosh, myself. I just really enjoy the work.
- facesofdang 3y ago[flagged]
- sethammons 3y agofwiw, each org I have been at that had the up-or-out policy had a "terminal" career stage where it no longer applied. In other words, juniors needed to work to midlevel, midlevel to senior. However, senior was a terminal role and as such you did not have to progress further up the ladder.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> senior was a terminal role and as such you did not have to progress further up the ladder There is a selection bias against CEOs who never establish a terminal phase :).
- WalterSear 3y agoEveryone else gets replaced by someone cheaper who still believes that sacrifices will be rewarded. That's the open secret.
- VirusNewbie 3y agoI worked hard this last year. I got about 40k more than I was expecting in bonus/stock.
- hinkley 3y agoYou should probably couch that in terms of % of base comp or you're going to get people's hopes a lot higher than is reasonable. I don't think I saw substantially more than 10k in Seattle, or heard rumors of non-sales coworkers seeing much more than that. Inflation adjusted maybe twice that, still less than half of yours. But you might also make 3x what we made because goddamn are condos expensive down there.
- VirusNewbie 3y agosome of that will pay out over 4 years so maybe it's not accurate, I'd say I got an extra 5% beyond my TC that I wasn't expecting that vests this year.
- ThrowawayR2 3y agoDunno where you've worked but up-or-out ejects most people destined for "out" long, long before they reach the point where ageism is even a consideration.
- hinkley 3y agoI think GP may be more referring to the notion that an older employee is going to have a flatter trajectory. If they come in as a 3 they expect to leave as a 3 or 4. Versus the children who come in at a 2 and plan to leave as a 5.
- paxys 3y agoAre you saying that no company has ever fired an experienced engineer?
- Hnrobert42 3y agoI mean of course that’s not what they are saying. Are you just picking a fight?
- karaterobot 3y agoThey even said "most", probably to avoid the exact question you asked.
- paxys 3y agoOkay, and the linked article isn't saying that every old person faces age discrimination in the industry. It's safe to say that most don't. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem, or that the problem should be ignored.
- pengaru 3y agoYour comment ignores the existence of the "terminal" L5 stage, below that your up or out loop applies... ex. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/eczachly_engineers-both-love-and-hate-terminal-levels-activity-7028768637012385792-uT06 https://www.linkedin.com/posts/eczachly_engineers-both-love-...