4 ms·

>> Everyone has their own bar, restaurant, theatre, and community center. As opposed to all the "urban lifestyle" people who readily offload their basic needs

>> Everyone has their own bar, restaurant, theatre, and community center. As opposed to all the "urban lifestyle" people who readily offload their basic needs onto others. Some people are happy cooking their own basic foods. Others want them to be prepared, and their dished cleaned, by a team. Some people are happy with a beer fridge. Others want to go to a bar and pay a young person to smile and flirt while concocting a fancy drink in a silly glass. To each their own. But having a basic kitchen in an apartment is not a luxury any more than having a cupboard for cleaning supplies, a service that can also be outsourced by those too lazy to clean up after themselves. A desire for a modicum of self-sufficiency is not a vice.

comte7092 3y ago
I think the point is that these giant houses provide a lot more than a “modicum” of self sufficiency. I live in an apartment and cook plenty, for example.
- jajko 3y ago
  People turn to things like viewing world only in extremes, if it subconsiously validates their viewpoints or life choices. We all fall into this trap to certain extent. Another case point - lived my whole life in apartments (thats how much of Europe runs), and preferred to buy another one instead of almost similarly-sized house. And I like cooking a lot and currently getting a maybe bit too much into various cuisines via youtube. Once you grok few basic concepts and rules its amazing how much one can achieve with little and some skills. Plus its creativity to the max, which everybody appreciates too. Also improves your health (better ingredients, you can make stuff with less sugar/fat). Bad thing is, your average restaurant wont feel that fancy anymore.
foxyv 3y ago
I'm not saying we should ban 4000 sq.ft. detached homes on large sprawling lots. They just shouldn't be the ONLY type of home being built. Give people options so they can choose. In fact, if you want to have that beautiful home surrounded by nature and not suburban cookie cutter houses, then it's also in your interest to see that cities stay in the cities. Too many orchards and farms have been demolished to build miserable tracts of poorly constructed wood frame houses.
- _uhtu 3y ago
  Exactly this. People act like it's a "big government takeover" trying to make multi-family housing against peoples wishes. The real fact is it's the exact opposite. "Big government" policies were created forcing people to only build single family homes on massive lots. Current proposals are to remove those regulations, and ironically people see it as the government coming for them.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    When a large chunk of the middle-class is counting on their home value to facilitate retirement, they're rightfully concerned about urbanization of their neighborhood. I personally believe they're mostly wrong - urbanization probably won't harm home values. And done well, might improve the values even more.
    - trgn 3y ago
      I agree. Nice cities are just attractive places to be. Even for people who live in the single family homes near them. An expensive city is expensive everywhere, regardless the type of housing, > they're rightfully concerned Yeah for sure. A lot of the pushback against development is a gut feel concern, the fear of losing something, it's not rational. The "rightfully" part I guess is because institutions groom people in borrowing for single family homes, and specifically that e.g. Try financing a multi-family on the same favorable terms. Few people enjoy pensions at an old age, so you're kind of thrown for the wolves if you don't own a home. The system really is maladjusted.
      - alistairSH 3y ago
        When our son moved out and we decided to right-size our home, we went looking for condos, but there was very little available in our area, at least nothing that was 3 bedroom + priced in our range + located near the subway. We found one condo that had size and location, and while the purchase price was less than a TH across the street, the monthly condo fees were somewhere near $1000/month. That ended up making the monthly expense >30% higher than the TH across the street (which is where we ended up).
BytesAndGears 3y ago
What a weird straw-man. I live in a 600sq ft 2-bedroom apartment with my wife, and we cook nearly every meal at home, we rarely go out to bars, or spend much money in the city. But we have 6-7 cute cafes within a 5 minute walk, so we stop in for a coffee now and then. We have a big park that we can picnic in, three blocks away. There are a ton of fun things to do for cheap or free nearby. We don’t need a ton of space at home because our city provides us a lot of happiness. If you can walk to handle all of your basic needs, then you don’t need to have so much at home, is the point that the GP was making. For example, we keep much less food at home in Europe than we used to in the US, because I can just drop by the veggie stand or mini-grocery on my walk/bike home from work and get a fresh version of whatever I want to cook that night. We don’t need a beer fridge because there is a beer store selling cold beer cans within a block of us, and with way more selection.
- trgn 3y ago
  It's impossible to explain this qualitative difference in life to somebody who hasn't experienced it. When the outside environment is attractive, apartment living is glorious. When the outside is gnarly (e.g. no amenities, bad neighbors, ...), apartment living is hell. There's a weird tipping point, where all the negatives of living in an apartment evaporate. But it's hard to put it into numbers. You just "know", experience it. Similar for houses, there's a weird tipping point where all the negatives of a home just congeal, and it's a drag and anchor, and the house starts to own you more than the other way around.
  - BytesAndGears 3y ago
    Yeah, that’s a great way to put it. I have also had great experiences in a detached home (living with my wife’s family for a short while). They’re kind of out in the beyond-suburbs, but we were able to do lots of trail running and hiking nearby, and they had a bigger house so we could all spread out and do different activities without disrupting each other. (Though, honestly, the extra maintenance and upkeep that they had would’ve been exhausting, if it were actually my home and I had to do it long-term) Neither is better, exactly, but there are a ton of hidden benefits to living in an apartment in a great part of a city (Amsterdam in my case)..
cassepipe 3y ago
While I agree with your general point I am really not sure it's as binary as you present it. I live in a apartment building and I cook all of my food and clean my dishes... in my kitchen. I also fix/do diy in my apartment. I can repair my bike in the basement area. If I were hunting/growing my own food, sure I'd want to live in a house with terrain around but that's a level of self-sufficiency that's quite rare in suburbia last time I checked.
oblio 3y ago
Beer fridge? Is that supposed to be a fridge just for beers?
- sandworm101 3y ago
  Yes. Generally kept in a garage or other place away from the kitchen. Beer is bought in bulk and kept cold for parties. It is just a cheap fridge without any bells and whistles. It is a real thing in much of the US.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  Yes, very common in the US. Often an older fridge that was moved to the garage or basement when the kitchen was remodeled. Sometimes a dedicated smaller fridge somewhere in the kitchen or living space - often also has wine, cheese, etc alongside the beer, depending on owner's preferences.

comte7092 3y ago

I think the point is that these giant houses provide a lot more than a “modicum” of self sufficiency. I live in an apartment and cook plenty, for example.

jajko 3y ago
People turn to things like viewing world only in extremes, if it subconsiously validates their viewpoints or life choices. We all fall into this trap to certain extent. Another case point - lived my whole life in apartments (thats how much of Europe runs), and preferred to buy another one instead of almost similarly-sized house. And I like cooking a lot and currently getting a maybe bit too much into various cuisines via youtube. Once you grok few basic concepts and rules its amazing how much one can achieve with little and some skills. Plus its creativity to the max, which everybody appreciates too. Also improves your health (better ingredients, you can make stuff with less sugar/fat). Bad thing is, your average restaurant wont feel that fancy anymore.

foxyv 3y ago

I'm not saying we should ban 4000 sq.ft. detached homes on large sprawling lots. They just shouldn't be the ONLY type of home being built. Give people options so they can choose. In fact, if you want to have that beautiful home surrounded by nature and not suburban cookie cutter houses, then it's also in your interest to see that cities stay in the cities. Too many orchards and farms have been demolished to build miserable tracts of poorly constructed wood frame houses.

_uhtu 3y ago
Exactly this. People act like it's a "big government takeover" trying to make multi-family housing against peoples wishes. The real fact is it's the exact opposite. "Big government" policies were created forcing people to only build single family homes on massive lots. Current proposals are to remove those regulations, and ironically people see it as the government coming for them.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  When a large chunk of the middle-class is counting on their home value to facilitate retirement, they're rightfully concerned about urbanization of their neighborhood. I personally believe they're mostly wrong - urbanization probably won't harm home values. And done well, might improve the values even more.
  - trgn 3y ago
    I agree. Nice cities are just attractive places to be. Even for people who live in the single family homes near them. An expensive city is expensive everywhere, regardless the type of housing, > they're rightfully concerned Yeah for sure. A lot of the pushback against development is a gut feel concern, the fear of losing something, it's not rational. The "rightfully" part I guess is because institutions groom people in borrowing for single family homes, and specifically that e.g. Try financing a multi-family on the same favorable terms. Few people enjoy pensions at an old age, so you're kind of thrown for the wolves if you don't own a home. The system really is maladjusted.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      When our son moved out and we decided to right-size our home, we went looking for condos, but there was very little available in our area, at least nothing that was 3 bedroom + priced in our range + located near the subway. We found one condo that had size and location, and while the purchase price was less than a TH across the street, the monthly condo fees were somewhere near $1000/month. That ended up making the monthly expense >30% higher than the TH across the street (which is where we ended up).

BytesAndGears 3y ago

What a weird straw-man. I live in a 600sq ft 2-bedroom apartment with my wife, and we cook nearly every meal at home, we rarely go out to bars, or spend much money in the city. But we have 6-7 cute cafes within a 5 minute walk, so we stop in for a coffee now and then. We have a big park that we can picnic in, three blocks away. There are a ton of fun things to do for cheap or free nearby. We don’t need a ton of space at home because our city provides us a lot of happiness. If you can walk to handle all of your basic needs, then you don’t need to have so much at home, is the point that the GP was making. For example, we keep much less food at home in Europe than we used to in the US, because I can just drop by the veggie stand or mini-grocery on my walk/bike home from work and get a fresh version of whatever I want to cook that night. We don’t need a beer fridge because there is a beer store selling cold beer cans within a block of us, and with way more selection.

trgn 3y ago
It's impossible to explain this qualitative difference in life to somebody who hasn't experienced it. When the outside environment is attractive, apartment living is glorious. When the outside is gnarly (e.g. no amenities, bad neighbors, ...), apartment living is hell. There's a weird tipping point, where all the negatives of living in an apartment evaporate. But it's hard to put it into numbers. You just "know", experience it. Similar for houses, there's a weird tipping point where all the negatives of a home just congeal, and it's a drag and anchor, and the house starts to own you more than the other way around.
- BytesAndGears 3y ago
  Yeah, that’s a great way to put it. I have also had great experiences in a detached home (living with my wife’s family for a short while). They’re kind of out in the beyond-suburbs, but we were able to do lots of trail running and hiking nearby, and they had a bigger house so we could all spread out and do different activities without disrupting each other. (Though, honestly, the extra maintenance and upkeep that they had would’ve been exhausting, if it were actually my home and I had to do it long-term) Neither is better, exactly, but there are a ton of hidden benefits to living in an apartment in a great part of a city (Amsterdam in my case)..

cassepipe 3y ago

While I agree with your general point I am really not sure it's as binary as you present it. I live in a apartment building and I cook all of my food and clean my dishes... in my kitchen. I also fix/do diy in my apartment. I can repair my bike in the basement area. If I were hunting/growing my own food, sure I'd want to live in a house with terrain around but that's a level of self-sufficiency that's quite rare in suburbia last time I checked.

oblio 3y ago

Beer fridge? Is that supposed to be a fridge just for beers?

sandworm101 3y ago
Yes. Generally kept in a garage or other place away from the kitchen. Beer is bought in bulk and kept cold for parties. It is just a cheap fridge without any bells and whistles. It is a real thing in much of the US.
alistairSH 3y ago
Yes, very common in the US. Often an older fridge that was moved to the garage or basement when the kitchen was remodeled. Sometimes a dedicated smaller fridge somewhere in the kitchen or living space - often also has wine, cheese, etc alongside the beer, depending on owner's preferences.