3 ms·

Traumatic early childhood experiences (suffering) can cause profoundly negative, irreversible effects on a child's brain development that will have issues persi

Traumatic early childhood experiences (suffering) can cause profoundly negative, irreversible effects on a child's brain development that will have issues persist well into adulthood and beyond - I don't think his take is scientific. edit: not sure why downvoted, here's a source if you don't believe me: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968319/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968319/

sanderjd 3y ago
Yep, I'm with you. I think this "suffering is necessary" point Huang is making is his weakest point. Maybe a more nuanced version of it that I think would be a stronger point is that there is a "sweet spot" of life challenges - not too much, but also not too little - that increase the odds of positive outcomes for people. But as you say, people who experience extreme suffering are much more likely to experience a lifetime of profound difficulty than to become a great auteur, entrepreneur, or leader.
- tpmoney 3y ago
  The only universal truth is that no thruths are universal. And I think “suffering builds character” in this and its other forms is a perfect example. Yes, extreme suffering will cause long term problems. And yet at the same time, we’re all probably familiar with or know someone who experienced “the gifted student wall” where their natural talent was good enough to carry them to success, right up until the point it wasn’t and they suffered a major setback because they’d never built up the skills or resiliency to overcome that obstacle. Like you said there is probably some sweet spot that we should try to hit. I suppose the hard part is there’s no good way to know how much suffering society should allow or encourage, and probably more importantly no good mechanism by which we can turn off suffering once you’ve “had enough”
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    Well put. Also, just to make it even harder, the "sweet spot" is probably very individual-specific.
  - homefree 3y ago
    Even (maybe especially) extreme suffering can create resilience - I suspect it’s not optimal for happiness, but that’s not what this is about. This is about resilience. A less resilient person may have a perfectly happy and content life doing things that aren’t as hard, that’s true of most people. But someone who has something extreme happen to them will have a way higher fucking bar for bad. If you lost your family in war the stress of a startup is nothing to you.
    - JohnMakin 3y ago
      > If you lost your family in war the stress of a startup is nothing to you. But respectfully this isn’t really how PTSD works. It seems intuitive to say this, but in reality, stressful situations will often trigger an exaggerated flight or fight response than is warranted due to changes in the brain’s structure, especially the hippocampus. Repeated, prolonged trauma makes the person even less resilient, not more so.
      - homefree 3y ago
        Not everybody develops PTSD, I think that’s the core point.
        JohnMakin 3y ago
        But not everyone develops PTSD precisely because they have innate resilience - at least that's how the theory goes. The resilience doesn't come from the trauma.
  - JohnMakin 3y ago
    Survivorship bias seems heavily at play here though. You don’t hear about all the people that just die way too young.
Ancapistani 3y ago
> Traumatic early childhood experiences While it sounds like this would describe Huang's experience, I don't think that's what he intended to convey. As others have said, it seems to be about resiliency. You don't develop that unless you have a reason to do so - "pain and suffering", to me, sounds like a synonym for "struggle". My childhood was pretty much uniformly excellent. I saw my parents struggle a bit, but I was too young for it to really mean much to me at the time, and it didn't directly impact me. My personal struggle didn't really begin until after high school; I ran head-first into undiagnosed ADHD and chronic depression. Recognizing those issues and overcoming them was the process that defined who I am as an adult. I fully believe it has made me a better and more resilient person. It wasn't until then that I was able to look back and really understand what my parents went through. It has also informed the way I parent my children. I make it a point to be transparent about what I'm thinking, the struggles I'm facing now, and the ways I'm dealing with them. That's tempered by constantly reinforcing that those things are my stresses, not my kids'... because my kids aren't my therapist :P. My hope is that by being transparent, my kids don't enter the adult world expecting everything to go according to plan. I'm trying to model not only "correct" behaviors, but how to emotionally deal with and overcome hardship.
homefree 3y ago
I think a lot of this psych science is bullshit - I’m generally skeptical of it given the problems in the replication crisis (and that a lot of modern psychotherapy seems to be making things worse for kids).
- JohnMakin 3y ago
  Ok, sure, but that doesn't really apply here. This is a well known neurological change that can be seen in brain scans - for instance the hippocampus will shrink/be underdeveloped.

sanderjd 3y ago

Yep, I'm with you. I think this "suffering is necessary" point Huang is making is his weakest point. Maybe a more nuanced version of it that I think would be a stronger point is that there is a "sweet spot" of life challenges - not too much, but also not too little - that increase the odds of positive outcomes for people. But as you say, people who experience extreme suffering are much more likely to experience a lifetime of profound difficulty than to become a great auteur, entrepreneur, or leader.

tpmoney 3y ago
The only universal truth is that no thruths are universal. And I think “suffering builds character” in this and its other forms is a perfect example. Yes, extreme suffering will cause long term problems. And yet at the same time, we’re all probably familiar with or know someone who experienced “the gifted student wall” where their natural talent was good enough to carry them to success, right up until the point it wasn’t and they suffered a major setback because they’d never built up the skills or resiliency to overcome that obstacle. Like you said there is probably some sweet spot that we should try to hit. I suppose the hard part is there’s no good way to know how much suffering society should allow or encourage, and probably more importantly no good mechanism by which we can turn off suffering once you’ve “had enough”
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Well put. Also, just to make it even harder, the "sweet spot" is probably very individual-specific.
- homefree 3y ago
  Even (maybe especially) extreme suffering can create resilience - I suspect it’s not optimal for happiness, but that’s not what this is about. This is about resilience. A less resilient person may have a perfectly happy and content life doing things that aren’t as hard, that’s true of most people. But someone who has something extreme happen to them will have a way higher fucking bar for bad. If you lost your family in war the stress of a startup is nothing to you.
  - JohnMakin 3y ago
    > If you lost your family in war the stress of a startup is nothing to you. But respectfully this isn’t really how PTSD works. It seems intuitive to say this, but in reality, stressful situations will often trigger an exaggerated flight or fight response than is warranted due to changes in the brain’s structure, especially the hippocampus. Repeated, prolonged trauma makes the person even less resilient, not more so.
    - homefree 3y ago
      Not everybody develops PTSD, I think that’s the core point.
      - JohnMakin 3y ago
        But not everyone develops PTSD precisely because they have innate resilience - at least that's how the theory goes. The resilience doesn't come from the trauma.
- JohnMakin 3y ago
  Survivorship bias seems heavily at play here though. You don’t hear about all the people that just die way too young.

Ancapistani 3y ago

> Traumatic early childhood experiences While it sounds like this would describe Huang's experience, I don't think that's what he intended to convey. As others have said, it seems to be about resiliency. You don't develop that unless you have a reason to do so - "pain and suffering", to me, sounds like a synonym for "struggle". My childhood was pretty much uniformly excellent. I saw my parents struggle a bit, but I was too young for it to really mean much to me at the time, and it didn't directly impact me. My personal struggle didn't really begin until after high school; I ran head-first into undiagnosed ADHD and chronic depression. Recognizing those issues and overcoming them was the process that defined who I am as an adult. I fully believe it has made me a better and more resilient person. It wasn't until then that I was able to look back and really understand what my parents went through. It has also informed the way I parent my children. I make it a point to be transparent about what I'm thinking, the struggles I'm facing now, and the ways I'm dealing with them. That's tempered by constantly reinforcing that those things are my stresses, not my kids'... because my kids aren't my therapist :P. My hope is that by being transparent, my kids don't enter the adult world expecting everything to go according to plan. I'm trying to model not only "correct" behaviors, but how to emotionally deal with and overcome hardship.

homefree 3y ago

I think a lot of this psych science is bullshit - I’m generally skeptical of it given the problems in the replication crisis (and that a lot of modern psychotherapy seems to be making things worse for kids).

JohnMakin 3y ago
Ok, sure, but that doesn't really apply here. This is a well known neurological change that can be seen in brain scans - for instance the hippocampus will shrink/be underdeveloped.