4 ms·

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your particular industry/field.) Apply your supposed skills and talents on something tangible then put it on the web and be findable. Fuck 4-6 years of your life and $100k in debt. Fuck all that.

lordlicorice 14y ago
It's hard to overstate the value of a university education... Why are you so vehement? Never went to college?
- webwright 14y ago
  I have a 4 year degree and I think it's hard to understate its value. I wish I'd spent that 4 years doing different things... I almost certainly would have learned more (and the things I learned would have been more useful). And it wouldn't have cost $120k.
  - overgryphon 14y ago
    That experience isn't applicable to everyone. Mine invaluable and cost less than 15k. College is what you make of it.
- ArmstrongRSBC 14y ago
  The cost of a college education is an overstatement of its value. How many recent grads outside of engineering do you know? Now how many of them are gainfully employed? Now how much did they pay for school and how much pay and experience did they miss out on by not working for the time they were in school? I just went through the post graduate job cycle along with a huge batch of my peers and any of us will be the first to tell you that college is broke. The only reason I am employed is because of projects I put together myself, online, outside of the scope of a university education. If you are looking to meet girls and learn how to drink to excess by all means college is a great place to do it. Otherwise college education in the liberal arts is a complete waste.
  - dasil003 14y ago
    That's not exactly true. On average with the current unemployment I think you are correct, but the value of an ivy league degree is still many multiples its cost because it gets into the good ol' boys club.
    - debacle 14y ago
      Most people do not graduate with an Ive League degree.
- kitsune_ 14y ago
  In Switzerland, which traditionally has seen a low rate in college degrees, and has relied on its apprenticeship system for a long time, we have seen an explosion in new college titles with the bologna reform. You want to be a janitor? Congratulations, you can now get a master in "facility management". Teaching special needs children? You better get started on that degree! You want to be a librarian? Well, what about getting a degree in "information management"? You got a degree in communications and have freelanced for a couple of years as a copy writer? What you gonna do? Ah right, you start to teach "corporate PR" at a university. Demand is that high that I could probably start teaching shit like Java, which I don't even know, in a heart beat. Without having any pedagogic qualities whatsoever. We live in a day and age where everybody wants a slice of that big fat cake. Everyone is entitled to 10k a month. Everybody wants a designer apartment, a BMW. Every year, a new smartphone, vacations in the Maldives. Living the dream. On top of that, costs are rising across the board, mandatory health insurance is killing everyone. Prices are inflating. So what you gonna do? Ah, right, you get a degree, it doesn't even matter which one. Shit, three years ago my mom got a degree (she was a Kindergarten teacher). She is 53 now. I really don't know how this could last. Maybe it can last for a small country like Switzerland, but I have a very bad feeling. A lot of the people will one day wake up and realize that just because the studied something, they're not going to earn 200k a year, even not 10 years down the road, yet they already live a lifestyle that assumes this to be true. edit: My girl friend proof reads master theses for people. You wouldn't believe the shit she has to read and correct. Without outside help, many people would fail miserably. If you pay enough you will get your degree in one form or another. And that is precisely what is going on.
  - evoxed 14y ago
    To be fair, library science is a field which many people dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to, often through some pretty rigorous undergraduate work. The professional accreditation is usually required for scholarly posts. 'Information science' is another thing entirely (though if that's your point, then, well... OK).
    - mjdwitt 14y ago
      Similarly, at least in much of the US, teaching special needs teachers requires extra certification on top of a normal teacher's license. Without all kinds of extra classes on the various psychological and physical disorders that they deal with in their classrooms, the extra classes seem pretty justified.
Locke1689 14y ago
There are certainly people who have the self-motivation, drive to learn, and grade themselves accurately using self-teaching tools -- but I think you'll find those people are few and far between. Also, most of the useful information I obtained in my degree was which resources are the best.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  And of course, you can't learn medicine (and others) without actually examining people Would you trust a doctor that only learned on the internet to operate on you?
earl 14y ago
In theory, I agree. In practice, college is a very useful signal. And it's not just the coursework from the college major. College demonstrates a variety of soft skills: time management, the ability to plan and meet deadlines, the ability to work on what's necessary when it's necessary, a willingness to suck it up and do some unglamorous but necessary drudge work, etc. I've worked with a variety of people that haven't gone to college and with few exceptions they were lacking in these areas. Obviously all those skills can be learned elsewhere, but as a hiring manager, it's a major time investment to try and suss that out whereas having a college degree with good grades means more likely than not that the candidate possesses those skills.
- jmathai 14y ago
  4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals. I agree that some things like research can't be done online. But I don't think those will remain at the university either. Graduate/research degrees must represent such a small % of a university's revenue that when the majority goes away they simply won't be able to survive. Just ask the RIAA if they can survive by selling mp3s when they're used to selling overpriced CDs.
  - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
    Graduate / research degrees are a university universities exist solely for the purpose of enabling professors to do further scientific research to do this they need: * a supply of intelligent grunts (phd candidates) * an administration capable of turning grant money into a well stocked lab and * a supply of very rich young people who will be taught the basics of science such that when the young rich people run the country they might get something right unfortunately we have forgotten that one genius well supported can provide value and economic growth for a whole planet (who invented steam engines, fire, wheels, transistors) - and million English graduates wont make up for it. I would be perfectly supportive of a university system that publically funded scientific (empirical, provable) courses, had industry funding for vocational work (engineering) and left arts to do what they have always done. But saying let's get rid of the lot? Nonsense.
  - 14y ago
juiceandjuice 14y ago
College isn't just for web programmers.
- neutronicus 14y ago
  Seriously. You'd think no one has to learn to use equipment that costs several tens of thousands of dollars and whose sale is rigorously controlled by the US government. /nuclear engineer
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    Correct And also medicine, biology, most of engineering, etc Sad, yeah.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  Unfortunately, Hacker News mostly is.
krschultz 14y ago
Fuck people who bitch about how expensive college is. You know how much I paid for college? $0. You know why I paid that? Because in high school I did a lot less than what you outlined above, but it was enough to get a scholarship to go to college. Six great schools looked at my application and offered me somewhere between a discounted rate and a full ride + stipend on top of that. And I was only 20th in my high school class by GPA rank. If you think that you can match a college degree based solely on self-guided learning, then you should be smart enough to get a scholarship. It's the same damn process. You need the self discipline to stick with a program of learning and working, and you need the intelligence to learn without support. It's just a question of whether you realize that in high school or later in life.
- jamesrcole 14y ago
  There's a limited number of scholarships to go around, and for those who can't get one, the cost will matter.
  - wtvanhest 14y ago
    There are tons of undergrad programs that are less than $10k per year. Big state schools which will give you all the social experiences you need and some of the learning. No HR department can interview people without a degree when there are so many people with degrees. A degree doesn't get you in the door, but is a minimum standard for just about any job. It is too bad school is too expensive, but it doesn't matter.
    - yashchandra 14y ago
      "It is too bad school is too expensive, but it doesn't matter." It does matter. The schools that are worth anything are too expensive (exceptions are there of course) while the cheap ones (read < 10K a year) are probably good for nothing. You are better off trying to get a job instead of attending those cheap schools.
      - overgryphon 14y ago
rayiner 14y ago
I taught myself to program (which I have no degree in). There was no way I could've taught myself aerospace engineering (which my degree is in). Not everything is like the software industry. Indeed, most things aren't.

lordlicorice 14y ago

It's hard to overstate the value of a university education... Why are you so vehement? Never went to college?

webwright 14y ago
I have a 4 year degree and I think it's hard to understate its value. I wish I'd spent that 4 years doing different things... I almost certainly would have learned more (and the things I learned would have been more useful). And it wouldn't have cost $120k.
- overgryphon 14y ago
  That experience isn't applicable to everyone. Mine invaluable and cost less than 15k. College is what you make of it.
ArmstrongRSBC 14y ago
The cost of a college education is an overstatement of its value. How many recent grads outside of engineering do you know? Now how many of them are gainfully employed? Now how much did they pay for school and how much pay and experience did they miss out on by not working for the time they were in school? I just went through the post graduate job cycle along with a huge batch of my peers and any of us will be the first to tell you that college is broke. The only reason I am employed is because of projects I put together myself, online, outside of the scope of a university education. If you are looking to meet girls and learn how to drink to excess by all means college is a great place to do it. Otherwise college education in the liberal arts is a complete waste.
- dasil003 14y ago
  That's not exactly true. On average with the current unemployment I think you are correct, but the value of an ivy league degree is still many multiples its cost because it gets into the good ol' boys club.
  - debacle 14y ago
    Most people do not graduate with an Ive League degree.
kitsune_ 14y ago
In Switzerland, which traditionally has seen a low rate in college degrees, and has relied on its apprenticeship system for a long time, we have seen an explosion in new college titles with the bologna reform. You want to be a janitor? Congratulations, you can now get a master in "facility management". Teaching special needs children? You better get started on that degree! You want to be a librarian? Well, what about getting a degree in "information management"? You got a degree in communications and have freelanced for a couple of years as a copy writer? What you gonna do? Ah right, you start to teach "corporate PR" at a university. Demand is that high that I could probably start teaching shit like Java, which I don't even know, in a heart beat. Without having any pedagogic qualities whatsoever. We live in a day and age where everybody wants a slice of that big fat cake. Everyone is entitled to 10k a month. Everybody wants a designer apartment, a BMW. Every year, a new smartphone, vacations in the Maldives. Living the dream. On top of that, costs are rising across the board, mandatory health insurance is killing everyone. Prices are inflating. So what you gonna do? Ah, right, you get a degree, it doesn't even matter which one. Shit, three years ago my mom got a degree (she was a Kindergarten teacher). She is 53 now. I really don't know how this could last. Maybe it can last for a small country like Switzerland, but I have a very bad feeling. A lot of the people will one day wake up and realize that just because the studied something, they're not going to earn 200k a year, even not 10 years down the road, yet they already live a lifestyle that assumes this to be true. edit: My girl friend proof reads master theses for people. You wouldn't believe the shit she has to read and correct. Without outside help, many people would fail miserably. If you pay enough you will get your degree in one form or another. And that is precisely what is going on.
- evoxed 14y ago
  To be fair, library science is a field which many people dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to, often through some pretty rigorous undergraduate work. The professional accreditation is usually required for scholarly posts. 'Information science' is another thing entirely (though if that's your point, then, well... OK).
  - mjdwitt 14y ago
    Similarly, at least in much of the US, teaching special needs teachers requires extra certification on top of a normal teacher's license. Without all kinds of extra classes on the various psychological and physical disorders that they deal with in their classrooms, the extra classes seem pretty justified.

Locke1689 14y ago

There are certainly people who have the self-motivation, drive to learn, and grade themselves accurately using self-teaching tools -- but I think you'll find those people are few and far between. Also, most of the useful information I obtained in my degree was which resources are the best.

raverbashing 14y ago
And of course, you can't learn medicine (and others) without actually examining people Would you trust a doctor that only learned on the internet to operate on you?

earl 14y ago

In theory, I agree. In practice, college is a very useful signal. And it's not just the coursework from the college major. College demonstrates a variety of soft skills: time management, the ability to plan and meet deadlines, the ability to work on what's necessary when it's necessary, a willingness to suck it up and do some unglamorous but necessary drudge work, etc. I've worked with a variety of people that haven't gone to college and with few exceptions they were lacking in these areas. Obviously all those skills can be learned elsewhere, but as a hiring manager, it's a major time investment to try and suss that out whereas having a college degree with good grades means more likely than not that the candidate possesses those skills.

jmathai 14y ago
4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals. I agree that some things like research can't be done online. But I don't think those will remain at the university either. Graduate/research degrees must represent such a small % of a university's revenue that when the majority goes away they simply won't be able to survive. Just ask the RIAA if they can survive by selling mp3s when they're used to selling overpriced CDs.
- lifeisstillgood 14y ago
  Graduate / research degrees are a university universities exist solely for the purpose of enabling professors to do further scientific research to do this they need: * a supply of intelligent grunts (phd candidates) * an administration capable of turning grant money into a well stocked lab and * a supply of very rich young people who will be taught the basics of science such that when the young rich people run the country they might get something right unfortunately we have forgotten that one genius well supported can provide value and economic growth for a whole planet (who invented steam engines, fire, wheels, transistors) - and million English graduates wont make up for it. I would be perfectly supportive of a university system that publically funded scientific (empirical, provable) courses, had industry funding for vocational work (engineering) and left arts to do what they have always done. But saying let's get rid of the lot? Nonsense.
- 14y ago

juiceandjuice 14y ago

College isn't just for web programmers.

neutronicus 14y ago
Seriously. You'd think no one has to learn to use equipment that costs several tens of thousands of dollars and whose sale is rigorously controlled by the US government. /nuclear engineer
- raverbashing 14y ago
  Correct And also medicine, biology, most of engineering, etc Sad, yeah.
eli_gottlieb 14y ago
Unfortunately, Hacker News mostly is.

krschultz 14y ago

Fuck people who bitch about how expensive college is. You know how much I paid for college? $0. You know why I paid that? Because in high school I did a lot less than what you outlined above, but it was enough to get a scholarship to go to college. Six great schools looked at my application and offered me somewhere between a discounted rate and a full ride + stipend on top of that. And I was only 20th in my high school class by GPA rank. If you think that you can match a college degree based solely on self-guided learning, then you should be smart enough to get a scholarship. It's the same damn process. You need the self discipline to stick with a program of learning and working, and you need the intelligence to learn without support. It's just a question of whether you realize that in high school or later in life.

jamesrcole 14y ago
There's a limited number of scholarships to go around, and for those who can't get one, the cost will matter.
- wtvanhest 14y ago
  There are tons of undergrad programs that are less than $10k per year. Big state schools which will give you all the social experiences you need and some of the learning. No HR department can interview people without a degree when there are so many people with degrees. A degree doesn't get you in the door, but is a minimum standard for just about any job. It is too bad school is too expensive, but it doesn't matter.
  - yashchandra 14y ago
    "It is too bad school is too expensive, but it doesn't matter." It does matter. The schools that are worth anything are too expensive (exceptions are there of course) while the cheap ones (read < 10K a year) are probably good for nothing. You are better off trying to get a job instead of attending those cheap schools.
    - overgryphon 14y ago

rayiner 14y ago

I taught myself to program (which I have no degree in). There was no way I could've taught myself aerospace engineering (which my degree is in). Not everything is like the software industry. Indeed, most things aren't.