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This is going to be a shit show. I don’t even really know where I stand. On one hand, we have to acknowledge that an adversarial government has massively succee

This is going to be a shit show. I don’t even really know where I stand. On one hand, we have to acknowledge that an adversarial government has massively succeeded in installing a botnet in our population— even if that wasn’t the initial intent of ByteDance, it’s effectively true now. On the other hand, you can’t stop people from installing spyware, donating money to fraudster politicians, surrendering themselves to cult leaders, etc. without invoking freedom of speech concerns (rightfully so). Pretty interesting situation, in a morbid way, to live through. I have no idea what’s going to happen.

hypeit 3y ago
It's no worse that what Facebook or Twitter does (or has done). I would prefer to have a plurality of options and not be limited to apps that are owned by countries the US deems "allies".
- franciscop 3y ago
  But Tiktok is much worse for US citizens: - Facebook+Twitter are US-based entities and have to follow US laws and regulations in a much more strict way than Tiktok - They are not controlled by a politically-motivated adversarial government You are also conflating apps "from a country" vs apps "under a country's gvmt control". I think most here would agree "apps from a plurality of countries" is a good goal to strive for, while "apps under a dictatorship's gvmt control" is not.
  - hypeit 3y ago
    TikTok has to adhere to the exact same laws as Facebook and Twitter, foreign ownership doesn't change that. Adversarial to whom? Not me, I'm far more concerned about the US government who in this case is directly limiting my choices as a US citizen.
  - segasaturn 3y ago
    TikTok is run out of the United States and adheres to the same laws as Twitter and Facebook. Its CEO, Shou Chew, was just at a hearing in front of Congress last month.
    - throwaway2990 3y ago
      TikTok also claimed the data couldn’t be viewed in China and then it got exposed that the data was being viewed in China by bytedance. Sooooooo no it doesn’t follow the same laws an its singaporean ceos claim of no links to China are his word only.
    - franciscop 3y ago
      As an example, do you think a US citizen personal data is as secure from requests from the CCP in e.g. Facebook as it is in Tiktok? That TikTok executives are as liable to US laws and prosecution as Facebook execs?
      - segasaturn 3y ago
        >That TikTok executives are as liable to US laws and prosecution as Facebook execs? They absolutely are - again, TikTok is an American company with American employees who can be held liable if TikTok breaks the law - e.g. Shou Chew. The problem for the government is that TikTok hasn't broken any laws.
  - bugglebeetle 3y ago
    This is a completely irrational argument, rooted solely in xenophobic appeals, that can be trivially dismissed by inverting the premise: Do Chinese citizens have more to fear from state control and monitoring of domestic social media services or those owned by companies outside China?
    - franciscop 3y ago
      Those are not equivalent as I hint in my last paragraph, different countries and gvmt influence do have different risk factors. You can e.g. criticize the US gvmt in a US-based app with no consequences. Good luck doing that in China (that = criticizing the CCP on a Chinese-based app while living in China).
      - bugglebeetle 3y ago
        > You can e.g. criticize the US gvmt in a US-based app with no consequences Oh really? Try that with your police department and see how it works out for you. https://hellgatenyc.com/nypd-warrantless-subpoena-copwatcher-social-media https://hellgatenyc.com/nypd-warrantless-subpoena-copwatcher...
      - codedokode 3y ago
        Actually it might be the other way round. Chinese will not care if you critisize US govt in private messages, but US platform might actually report you to FBI.
    - ralphist 3y ago
      They have more to fear from apps under the Chinese government's control. How does that dismiss the parent's claim?
  - codedokode 3y ago
    On the other hand, a citizen should be more scared of his own govt rather than foreign govt because foreign govt won't arrest him. So for an American TikTok is probably less threat than Facebook or Twitter.
    - zaphar 3y ago
      I don't even know how you reach that kind of conclusion from that fact. It's not even strictly true. If I travel to China or Russia for a trip there is absolutely nothing stopping them from arresting me. It's only true if you never travel to that foreign country. In the case of Russia they can do worse than imprison you. Just ask any number of Russia defectors who were killed on on Western soil. This is a very poorly thought out take.
      - janalsncm 3y ago
        I don’t think they were talking about traveling to Russia or China, they’re talking about living in the US. The vast majority of people will not travel to China or Russsia. For instance if you discuss doing something illegal like getting an abortion in the US, only the US government really cares about that. Whether China knows is irrelevant. https://www.npr.org/2022/08/12/1117092169/nebraska-cops-used-facebook-messages-to-investigate-an-alleged-illegal-abortion https://www.npr.org/2022/08/12/1117092169/nebraska-cops-used...
Leary 3y ago
It’s going to pass Congress, signed into law. Then a federal judge will issue a preliminary injunction blocking it on first amendment grounds just like what happened both times with the Montana ban in 2023 and trumps executive order in 2020
- nadermx 3y ago
  This feels mostly right. Although, it may not make it past the senate, and it might not get signed if it goes by the president. Especially since he's campaigning on TikTok. What amazes me is how people's view in these threads are for a ban. For a counter point, the EFF thinks congress should not ban apps[0] [0] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/congress-should-give-unconstitutional-tiktok-bans https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/congress-should-give-u...
  - Miner49er 3y ago
    Biden said he would sign it.
    - Spivak 3y ago
      And then presumably smacked down in the courts for an obvious 1A violation. Is there any legal reason they think surely this one is constitutional?
      - Miner49er 3y ago
        That's what confuses me. Surely they know it likely won't survive the courts. So maybe they are banning it to win points with voters, but it doesn't seem like something that would be popular with the voters. So I'm left wondering why there's so much motivation in Congress to do this.
        nebula8804 3y ago
        Who are the people that want it? Lets put aside the people that don't want it. I can think of the following: 1. American tech companies 2. AIPAC 3. "The Deep State" 4. Maybe "bleeding heart American boomers"? Is this a large enough group to push bills through? Seems like it. The reason we put aside people who don't want it is because to push back against a bill requires at least an equal amount of effort that it took to get it going, usually more (see right to repair legislation, fight over DMCA provisions etc.). So unless you believe the people that don't want it are really more powerful than all of the above it makes sense why its going through.
segasaturn 3y ago
Why is it worse for me to have Tiktok installed on my phone than Google Chrome or Facebook?
- Pigalowda 3y ago
  It’s not worse for you personally. The US government can request and use warrants for information collected by all of those entities. The US cannot request information on Chinese citizens in China because US companies are restricted from operating in China. They don’t have any significant data. On the other hand China now has a very valuable and large presence in tiktok here in the US and can access any collected information it wants on Chinese citizens in the US and any other user. I imagine it doesn’t take a warrant either but I’m unfamiliar with their protocols. So it’s likely not worse for you personally, especially if you’re a typical American who is unsupportive of their government and its foreign policy.
- Draiken 3y ago
  Because only spying from American companies is allowed. /s In all seriousness though, it isn't. People are generally simply trying to fit in, so hating on anything China is viewed as good and everyone sticks to it. We know because of Snowden how the US government has access to all (most likely way more) of the same data they are now worried China has access to.
- RivieraKid 3y ago
  Because TikTok can be used as a weapon by China. Democracies have a weakness - enemies can influence the population and therefore the government. Russia does this quite effectively in my opinion (one example is Slovakia).
  - Sparkle-san 3y ago
    Social media can and is already being used as a weapon by internal actors against democracy.
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    Social media of US owned companies was already used as a weapon and still is. Perhaps instead of this legislation we should clearly lay out the regulations that all social media companies need to adhere too.
baybal2 3y ago
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andrewla 3y ago
Can you expand on what you mean by "installing a botnet"? As a term of art, a botnet refers to a collection of computing devices that can be controlled remotely. I am not aware of any such capability in TikTok itself. Presumably they could attempt to offer a new version of TikTok that allowed arbitrary remote execution or one-time behavior, but this would need to get past Apple's app review process and would be subject to pretty immediate rollback. Like if they wanted to use the install base of TikTok to perform a DDoS against an adversary, that would pretty much be a one-shot deal, after which it would be shut down. Unless you're using botnet in a different sense, in which case this is irrelevant but I would recommend using a different word in this case ("propaganda engine" maybe) to avoid carrying along the connotations.
- graeme 3y ago
  They're using the word botnet as an analogy. You have to read the whole sentence "installing a botnet in our population".
  - andrewla 3y ago
    In that case I downgrade my assessment of this threat from "minor IT threat" to "nonsensical word salad". The idea that the CCP has a network of Manchurian Candidates waiting to do their bidding is ridiculous.
kmeisthax 3y ago
The reason why TikTok is able to spy and botnet on Americans is because we have no effective data privacy law. This is deliberate because the CIA and NSA buy shittons of user data from adtech data brokers to do an end run around the 4th Amendment. Stopping TikTok without gutting 1A would be very easy: just copypaste GDPR into local law and make sure we have someone enforcing it. The problem is that the US government likes it's spying and Congress isn't interested in reigning them in.

hypeit 3y ago

It's no worse that what Facebook or Twitter does (or has done). I would prefer to have a plurality of options and not be limited to apps that are owned by countries the US deems "allies".

franciscop 3y ago
But Tiktok is much worse for US citizens: - Facebook+Twitter are US-based entities and have to follow US laws and regulations in a much more strict way than Tiktok - They are not controlled by a politically-motivated adversarial government You are also conflating apps "from a country" vs apps "under a country's gvmt control". I think most here would agree "apps from a plurality of countries" is a good goal to strive for, while "apps under a dictatorship's gvmt control" is not.
- hypeit 3y ago
  TikTok has to adhere to the exact same laws as Facebook and Twitter, foreign ownership doesn't change that. Adversarial to whom? Not me, I'm far more concerned about the US government who in this case is directly limiting my choices as a US citizen.
- segasaturn 3y ago
  TikTok is run out of the United States and adheres to the same laws as Twitter and Facebook. Its CEO, Shou Chew, was just at a hearing in front of Congress last month.
  - throwaway2990 3y ago
    TikTok also claimed the data couldn’t be viewed in China and then it got exposed that the data was being viewed in China by bytedance. Sooooooo no it doesn’t follow the same laws an its singaporean ceos claim of no links to China are his word only.
  - franciscop 3y ago
    As an example, do you think a US citizen personal data is as secure from requests from the CCP in e.g. Facebook as it is in Tiktok? That TikTok executives are as liable to US laws and prosecution as Facebook execs?
    - segasaturn 3y ago
      >That TikTok executives are as liable to US laws and prosecution as Facebook execs? They absolutely are - again, TikTok is an American company with American employees who can be held liable if TikTok breaks the law - e.g. Shou Chew. The problem for the government is that TikTok hasn't broken any laws.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  This is a completely irrational argument, rooted solely in xenophobic appeals, that can be trivially dismissed by inverting the premise: Do Chinese citizens have more to fear from state control and monitoring of domestic social media services or those owned by companies outside China?
  - franciscop 3y ago
    Those are not equivalent as I hint in my last paragraph, different countries and gvmt influence do have different risk factors. You can e.g. criticize the US gvmt in a US-based app with no consequences. Good luck doing that in China (that = criticizing the CCP on a Chinese-based app while living in China).
    - bugglebeetle 3y ago
      > You can e.g. criticize the US gvmt in a US-based app with no consequences Oh really? Try that with your police department and see how it works out for you. https://hellgatenyc.com/nypd-warrantless-subpoena-copwatcher-social-media https://hellgatenyc.com/nypd-warrantless-subpoena-copwatcher...
    - codedokode 3y ago
      Actually it might be the other way round. Chinese will not care if you critisize US govt in private messages, but US platform might actually report you to FBI.
  - ralphist 3y ago
    They have more to fear from apps under the Chinese government's control. How does that dismiss the parent's claim?
- codedokode 3y ago
  On the other hand, a citizen should be more scared of his own govt rather than foreign govt because foreign govt won't arrest him. So for an American TikTok is probably less threat than Facebook or Twitter.
  - zaphar 3y ago
    I don't even know how you reach that kind of conclusion from that fact. It's not even strictly true. If I travel to China or Russia for a trip there is absolutely nothing stopping them from arresting me. It's only true if you never travel to that foreign country. In the case of Russia they can do worse than imprison you. Just ask any number of Russia defectors who were killed on on Western soil. This is a very poorly thought out take.
    - janalsncm 3y ago
      I don’t think they were talking about traveling to Russia or China, they’re talking about living in the US. The vast majority of people will not travel to China or Russsia. For instance if you discuss doing something illegal like getting an abortion in the US, only the US government really cares about that. Whether China knows is irrelevant. https://www.npr.org/2022/08/12/1117092169/nebraska-cops-used-facebook-messages-to-investigate-an-alleged-illegal-abortion https://www.npr.org/2022/08/12/1117092169/nebraska-cops-used...

Leary 3y ago

It’s going to pass Congress, signed into law. Then a federal judge will issue a preliminary injunction blocking it on first amendment grounds just like what happened both times with the Montana ban in 2023 and trumps executive order in 2020

nadermx 3y ago
This feels mostly right. Although, it may not make it past the senate, and it might not get signed if it goes by the president. Especially since he's campaigning on TikTok. What amazes me is how people's view in these threads are for a ban. For a counter point, the EFF thinks congress should not ban apps[0] [0] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/congress-should-give-unconstitutional-tiktok-bans https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/congress-should-give-u...
- Miner49er 3y ago
  Biden said he would sign it.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    And then presumably smacked down in the courts for an obvious 1A violation. Is there any legal reason they think surely this one is constitutional?
    - Miner49er 3y ago
      That's what confuses me. Surely they know it likely won't survive the courts. So maybe they are banning it to win points with voters, but it doesn't seem like something that would be popular with the voters. So I'm left wondering why there's so much motivation in Congress to do this.
      - nebula8804 3y ago
        Who are the people that want it? Lets put aside the people that don't want it. I can think of the following: 1. American tech companies 2. AIPAC 3. "The Deep State" 4. Maybe "bleeding heart American boomers"? Is this a large enough group to push bills through? Seems like it. The reason we put aside people who don't want it is because to push back against a bill requires at least an equal amount of effort that it took to get it going, usually more (see right to repair legislation, fight over DMCA provisions etc.). So unless you believe the people that don't want it are really more powerful than all of the above it makes sense why its going through.

segasaturn 3y ago

Why is it worse for me to have Tiktok installed on my phone than Google Chrome or Facebook?

Pigalowda 3y ago
It’s not worse for you personally. The US government can request and use warrants for information collected by all of those entities. The US cannot request information on Chinese citizens in China because US companies are restricted from operating in China. They don’t have any significant data. On the other hand China now has a very valuable and large presence in tiktok here in the US and can access any collected information it wants on Chinese citizens in the US and any other user. I imagine it doesn’t take a warrant either but I’m unfamiliar with their protocols. So it’s likely not worse for you personally, especially if you’re a typical American who is unsupportive of their government and its foreign policy.
Draiken 3y ago
Because only spying from American companies is allowed. /s In all seriousness though, it isn't. People are generally simply trying to fit in, so hating on anything China is viewed as good and everyone sticks to it. We know because of Snowden how the US government has access to all (most likely way more) of the same data they are now worried China has access to.
RivieraKid 3y ago
Because TikTok can be used as a weapon by China. Democracies have a weakness - enemies can influence the population and therefore the government. Russia does this quite effectively in my opinion (one example is Slovakia).
- Sparkle-san 3y ago
  Social media can and is already being used as a weapon by internal actors against democracy.
- dv_dt 3y ago
  Social media of US owned companies was already used as a weapon and still is. Perhaps instead of this legislation we should clearly lay out the regulations that all social media companies need to adhere too.

baybal2 3y ago

[dead]

andrewla 3y ago

Can you expand on what you mean by "installing a botnet"? As a term of art, a botnet refers to a collection of computing devices that can be controlled remotely. I am not aware of any such capability in TikTok itself. Presumably they could attempt to offer a new version of TikTok that allowed arbitrary remote execution or one-time behavior, but this would need to get past Apple's app review process and would be subject to pretty immediate rollback. Like if they wanted to use the install base of TikTok to perform a DDoS against an adversary, that would pretty much be a one-shot deal, after which it would be shut down. Unless you're using botnet in a different sense, in which case this is irrelevant but I would recommend using a different word in this case ("propaganda engine" maybe) to avoid carrying along the connotations.

graeme 3y ago
They're using the word botnet as an analogy. You have to read the whole sentence "installing a botnet in our population".
- andrewla 3y ago
  In that case I downgrade my assessment of this threat from "minor IT threat" to "nonsensical word salad". The idea that the CCP has a network of Manchurian Candidates waiting to do their bidding is ridiculous.

kmeisthax 3y ago

The reason why TikTok is able to spy and botnet on Americans is because we have no effective data privacy law. This is deliberate because the CIA and NSA buy shittons of user data from adtech data brokers to do an end run around the 4th Amendment. Stopping TikTok without gutting 1A would be very easy: just copypaste GDPR into local law and make sure we have someone enforcing it. The problem is that the US government likes it's spying and Congress isn't interested in reigning them in.