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Montana Man Pleads to Federal Charges for Efforts to Create Giant Hybrid Sheep
- pfdietz 3y agoNot really seeing why this should be illegal.
- klyrs 3y agoNevermind the article outlining a plethora of crimes involving trafficking endangered animals, fraud and more.
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoI think “Schubarth and others forged veterinary inspection certificates” did him in.
- ceejayoz 3y agoThe guy imported an endangered species that may be invasive, forging documentation along the way.
- grouchomarx 3y agoGive the press release linked in this post a read it provides some details
- binarymax 3y agoImport of wildlife and organic material is very well defined in US Code. Even transport across state lines is well defined. This isn’t some obscure case precedent - it’s clearly illegal.
- CogitoCogito 3y agoThe question posed was _why_ this should be illegal.
- ceejayoz 3y agoBecause you can introduce pests and invasive species that wipe out entire ecosystems. See, for example, emerald ash borers.
- chrischen 3y agoThe sheep was cloned from DNA so it’s not as if he brought a sheep into the country. Unless you mean the sheep itself is a pest…
- ceejayoz 3y agoYes, the sheep itself could easily be a pest, as has happened with Asian carp, zebra mussels, emerald ash borers, etc. It's not difficult to imagine a scenario where escaped giant sheep manage to outcompete local wildlife.
- saalweachter 3y agoSame reason as anything, externalities.
- kstenerud 3y agoMany reasons, including: * Spreading diseases * Introducing an invasive species to a vulnerable environment * Encouraging expanded trade in endangered species (gets more people interested, which causes them to go extinct faster) Not to mention the fraud he committed in order to import in the first place.
- gopher_space 3y agoFor the same reason you can’t import dirty, used farm equipment.
- ethbr1 3y agoExactly. There's a place for keeping exotic animals without proper training or oversight: it's called Florida.
- JackFr 3y agoThe title on the DOJ release is misleading. It's not the breeding that was the crime. Trafficking in endangered species and fraudulent veterinary documents I think were the actual crimes, which he committed in support of the breeding efforts.
- palmfacehn 3y agoFarming animals like this might create alternatives to poaching and take pressure off endangered species.
- speedylight 3y agoHe violated State, Federal, and International laws in pursuit of his enterprise. I gotta hand it to him it’s an impressive scheme to (almost) pull off at 80, I hope when I am that age I’ll be half as motivated to do stuff as he is.
- pfdietz 3y ago[flagged]
- wredue 3y agoForging documents should be illegal, yes. And there are numerous reason why there are restrictions on transferring genetic material and how it’s used. Doing something wrong can greatly disrupt an ecosystem. You not understanding why something is illegal doesn’t mean it should be legal.
- maximinus_thrax 3y ago> It should be illegal because it's against the law? Don't be condescending. These laws are on the books for a reason. Multiple reasons actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species . Also, whenever a foreign pathogen decimates livestock in the US, remember the 'It should be illegal because it's against the law' statement.
- meowtimemania 3y agoI think the issue is buying parts of an endangered species. It’s problematic in the same way that buying a rino horn is illegal. He’s supporting a market that harms an endangered species.
- munificent 3y agoThe dude tried to create a new species which could potentially become invasive. Look at what kudzu is doing to the South or invasive Asian carp are doing to midwest waterways to get a sense of why that is an absolutely batshit insane thing to do and why it should be massively illegal. Invasive species are like biological weapons of massive destruction. Their potential blast radius is damn near infinite.
- atlasunshrugged 3y agoOkay, don't love what he was creating the sheep for but I'm not sure I understand why this is such a big deal? We change animals all the time (looking at you, French Bulldog owners), unfortunately often to their detriment.
- ceejayoz 3y agoIt's clearly not the mere hybridization that's problematic here.
- maximinus_thrax 3y ago> Montana Man Pleads Guilty to Federal Wildlife Trafficking Charges as Part of Yearslong Effort to Create Giant Hybrid Sheep for Captive Hunting Pay attention to the wording here. The charges aren't about the hybrid per-se, they're about wildlife trafficking.
- showerst 3y agoHe important an endangered species, AND forged the vet certificates. This is how we get new diseases in staple livestock.
- h2odragon 3y agohe imported parts of of a restricted species, and had clone embryo made from that.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- klyrs 3y agoI know we're not supposed to ask if you've read the article, but I've gotta wonder why the first two top-level comments are responding to the headline and wondering why a whole bunch of shady and fraudulent behavior isn't okay. Did this denizens of this site learn nothing from Theranos?
- numbers 3y agofrom the article: > The Lacey Act prohibits interstate trade in wildlife that has been taken, possessed, transported or sold in violation of federal or state law. The Lacey Act also prohibits the interstate sale of wildlife that has been falsely labeled. The Act is one of the most powerful tools the United States has to combat wildlife trafficking and prevent ecological invasion by injurious wildlife.
- palmfacehn 3y ago>He then implanted the embryos in ewes on his ranch, resulting in a single, pure genetic male Marco Polo argali that he named “Montana Mountain King” or MMK. Has anyone found pics of "Montana Mountain King"?
- maximinus_thrax 3y agoCan a mod change the title? It's slightly editorialized and very misleading. The actual case is pretty mundane...
- h2odragon 3y ago> Schubarth and others forged veterinary inspection certificates, falsely claiming that the sheep were legally permitted species. On occasion, Schubarth sold MMK semen directly to sheep breeders in other states. 2 counts at up to 5 years each; dude is 80 now...
- tomcam 3y agoHis cellie is like, “I’m in for shooting two cops. Ewe?”
- Mistletoe 3y agoCaptive hunting facilities is such a gross term. I remember reading Field and Stream as a kid and they talked often about what was sporting vs. not. It taught me a lot. I don’t like killing things so I don’t partake at all but I don’t even recognize the sport as it is conducted now. Seems more like tactical warfare.
- rolph 3y agowhen i hunt it is not sport, it is dead serious. i make about 800 lbs of meat to do for about 7 months of winter.
- adriand 3y agoI was perplexed when a friend of mine decided to take up hunting for birds. I was dismayed when I discovered this "sporting activity" involved paying to have birds that are bred in captivity stashed in various locations around a wooded area, which he then startles out of hiding with his dog and then blasts with a shotgun. Surely one of the cruellest and stupidest pastimes ever invented.
- armatav 3y agoYou lied about the type of sheep you're bringing in? 5 years by 2 counts. Kill a guy, that's 10 years. Yeah seems like a totally rational and not depraved punishment system.
- ceejayoz 3y agoMaximum sentences and actual sentences are typically very different. Popehat had an article titled “whale sushi” that unfortunately appears to be offline about this. Edit: https://web.archive.org/web/20240114090811/https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence-eleventy-million-years/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240114090811/https://www.popeh...
- tyingq 3y agoTrue, though Federal sentences have much less opportunity for things like early release based on good behavior, etc. You tend to serve most of the sentenced time.
- dragonwriter 3y agoYes, but the point is the sentenced time for federal crimes tends to be much closer to the result of calculations under the federal sentencing guidelines than it is to the statutory maximum for the charged offenses.
- tyingq 3y agoI would guess all the factors that go into "how long will someone actually be incarcerated" are interesting and on topic. Why would just one be "the point"?
- dragonwriter 3y agoI meant “the point of the post you are responding to, which you seem to have missed”, when I said “the point”; I thought, in context, that would be clear.
- rob74 3y agoSomehow the "guilty" got dropped from the title, and without it the "pleads" is a bit undetermined...
- dragonwriter 3y ago“pleads to X charges” is a common idiom referring to entering a plea that accepts sentencing on the charges named (either guilty or nolo contendere/“no contest”—they function the same in the context of the charges, though the latter cannot be used in subsequent litigation the way the former can, and is typically ag the discretion of the court to allow for that reason.)
- debacle 3y ago@dang, headline is highly editorialized.
- TriangleEdge 3y agoI'm not understanding why these are federal charges. I thought selectively breeding animals and crops for desirable features is common place. For example: pugs can't reproduce naturally because people selectively bred them. Small dogs also don't occur anywhere naturally, they're human engineered animals.
- ceejayoz 3y agoThe charges have little to do with merely creating a hybrid. The release notes multiple violations of state, Federal, and international law, including document forgery and importing an endangered species.
- ukd1 3y agoIn the article it explains it - he's using a non-native (banned) species to breed, that's also endangered, and using material from wild game (also not allowed), and he's forged paperwork to cover it all up.
- ortusdux 3y agoLink to the original charging document - https://dailymontanan.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/schubarth-ranch-sheep-cloning.pdf https://dailymontanan.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/schubar...
- perihelions 3y agoThis is very tangential, but I just learned today that aristocratic ancient Romans used to dye sheep purple. To show off to other Romans, they used the then super-expensive purple dyes, the ones they used on woolen togas of high social rank, on whole sheep. Pliny wrote about it in Naturalis Historia. - "I myself have seen the fleece upon the living animal dyed purple, scarlet, and violet,—a pound and a half of dye being used for each,—just as though they had been produced by Nature in this form, to meet the demands of luxury." https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/60230/pg60230-images.html#BOOK_VIII_CHAP_74 https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/60230/pg60230-images.ht...
- perihelions 3y agoIt's strange to have a felony for unlicensed imports of genetic material. The law the press release cites classifies that as "animal parts". Hypothetically—would it be the same crime if they sequenced the DNA of those sheep in Kyrgyzstan, transmitted the sequences electronically into the USA, and then synthesized the DNA from the digital sequence? Ignoring the question of whether that's currently feasible or not. Would it be legal to synthesize* i.e. extinct mammoths from paleontological DNA samples? Would it make a difference which part of the globe the mammoth samples were found in? *(I don't know what the correct terminology is)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]