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Is there any evidence it's been used for propaganda? I don't use TikTok a lot, but it seems very non-political (maybe it's my filter bubble). The real cesspool

Is there any evidence it's been used for propaganda? I don't use TikTok a lot, but it seems very non-political (maybe it's my filter bubble). The real cesspool of hatred and madness is Facebook - but of course Congress doesn't care too much about that. As far as I remember from the previous elections the Russian bots were operating on US based platforms

catskul2 3y ago
non-political is political. Do you imagine that there aren't people making political TikToks? Or that non-political themes don't affect politics? Or that bubble control doesn't affect politics?
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  Sorry, what? How are my dancing Korean girls and cat videos affecting politics?
  - itishappy 3y ago
    You're focusing on them instead of politics. "Panem et circenses" is a political tactic.
    - contrarian1234 3y ago
      Gosh, no politics in my relaxing doom-scrolling video app. Is it some nefarious plot to pacify the evil capitalists.. or wait... maybe they just know what consumers want?
      - itishappy 3y ago
        Doesn't have to be a ploy or even intentional, but if boomers watch Fox while zoomers watch dancing... that has political implications.
  - colpabar 3y ago
    It's confusing, but I think I can explain. If you are able to enjoy your life and not worry about something for any period of time, you are actually making a political statement that everyone else is wrong and you think they deserve to die. Every problem in the world must be your problem too, forever and always.
  - hn_acker 3y ago
    catskul2's comment was very ambiguous, but a charitable interpretation of the first part > non-political is political. Do you imagine that there aren't people making political TikToks? is that you are indeed in a filter bubble of non-political content which exists alongside political content. One example of political content on TikTok within the larger Israel-Hamas war topic was the brief trend of commenting on Osama bin Laden's manifesto called "Letter to America" [1]. If you were (not saying that you are) knowingly ignoring the existence of political content on a specific topic on TikTok, then you would be making an inherently political decision (which does not mean that you should change your decision). [1] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/osama-bin-ladens-letter-to-america-tiktok-trend https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/osama-bin-ladens-lette...
- suoduandao3 3y ago
  >Non-political is political Is war also peace and freedom also slavery?
  - mckn1ght 3y ago
    > Is war also peace Si vis pacem, para bellum > freedom also slavery Total freedom for one includes their ability to enslave others. My point is, you’re presenting false dichotomies to justify another (the political and the non-political).
    - suoduandao3 3y ago
      Is that what I'm doing? I thought I was making an Orwell reference to imply that a peculiar kind of very public gaslighting he warned about is not confined to the slogans of 1984's Party.
ffsm8 3y ago
Uuuh, yes? If your populist parties aren't on it, they're incompetent.
mathgorges 3y ago
I suppose that depends on what you mean by “propaganda”. Personally I think it can be convincingly argued that any message transmitted to you from a State is propaganda (Note: that means that I don’t believe that all propaganda is inherently evil, sometimes your interests align with a State. For example governments paying for advertising to discourage smoking is a great thing, IMO!) I’ve never lived in China, but I’ve spoken with many people that have and my understanding is that allegiance to the State (eg, the State’s sole stewards the CCP) is a big part of life there. I’ve even been told that staying in the good graces of the State’s only official political party is important if you want to do things like buy property or start a business. TikTok is administrated by humans, many of whom live in China. Those humans are, I assume, ambitious and want to do well for themselves and therefore likely want to appease the State. Therefore, when I read articles about how the administrators of TikTok can effectively decide what goes viral it makes me fear what I’ve begun calling ‘incidental’ propaganda. Probably those China-based administrations at TikTok don’t want to actively harm American society, but it’s certainly true that America and China have different interests in the world. I assume that any administrators in China will never choose to make something go viral if it is critical of the Chinese State or its interests. You can see how that might skew things for those that only get their news from TikTok, right? (This is my understanding and thinking on things right now given the information I have. I gladly welcome any new information if someone reads this and disagrees. But please be kind :))
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  Having lived there for several years I didn't find the state some ever-present aspect of life - but it doesn't seem particularly relevant Your line of reasoning seems fine, but it basically applies to any "other". If some European decides what goes viral, he is going to subject poor stupid american viewers to their nefarious European biases - and those biases may harm our society! Furthermore the biases of US based company executives may harm our society as well. I'll grant you that they may be less inclined, but gosh, rage bait and selling sweets to children does make them a whole lot of money. So the logic isn't wrong, but it seems to be applied selectively in cases that just happen to benefit large American tech companies - who are incapable of providing US consumers a product that's nearly as good as Tiktok Maybe biases in algorithms need to addressed.. But that should be done in a thoughtful unbiased holistic that applied equally to everyone - instead of this embarrassing kneejerk "the commies are taking over" kind of way
falcolas 3y ago
Are folks using it to distribute propaganda? Yes. Is there evidence - any evidence whatsoever - that CCP or bytedance is using tiktok to push a particular flavor of propaganda? No. That said, TikTok's moderation is quite unfriendly to LGBTQ+ and Palestine creators (even though they find ways around it).
- tempsy 3y ago
  The 60 minutes episode last year (?) insinuated that the CCP's main goal is social disorder eg they heavily restrict the Chinese version for kids to be education oriented where the American version is basically all ages softcore porn and ragebait.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    In other words they have content restrictions in their country as with TV and other media, while the international version is more similar to its competition in Instagram?
  - harkinian 3y ago
    The YouTube and Facebook short-video recommendations I got when those features launched were mostly young women wearing very little and doing something that I'm guessing is not the main point of the video. YouTube knows I like music, so it gave me women playing violin in tiny skirts, though I think this stopped happening at some point. I didn't even watch the videos, they insisted on putting them on the home page despite me giving 0 engagement. I finally adblocked the element.
  - fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
    As someone who has actually used douyin (about one or two years ago) I can say for certain that that isn't true in the general case. Perhaps the rules are a bit stricter but I saw absolutely zero educational content at all in any form. I did see some military videos which seemed like propaganda as they showed up randomly but its hard to say if those only showed up because I watched the first one to its end for example. The only possibility is that they only enable the education mode if you are actually located in China or if you sign in as a child or something. But it didn't seem to be the default experience from what I saw first hand. It shows you want you want to see.
Invictus0 3y ago
Yes, see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39633652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39633652
whats_a_quasar 3y ago
Here is a study which compares the prevalence of topics on Instagram with the prevalence of topics on TikTok, and shows that topics which are sensitive to the CCP (Tibet, Hong Kong) occur 5-10x less frequently than comparable topics which are not sensitive to the CCP https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing...
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  What a strange study... They seem to just count the number of videos on certain hashtags. The huge discrepancy would require a very large fraction (but not all) of videos under certain hashtags to be banned/removed entirely. That would be immediately obvious when just uploading videos under that hashtags (which they don't do) They simply dismiss the alternate explanation .. that it's a demographic difference or a time difference. Uygher stuff was a hot topic before Tiktok became popular. And people that are super pumped about that issue and are posting about Chinese political issues probably are I'm guessing not the kind of people to be using Tiktok. Those are just wild guesses.. but there are a lot of ways to explain the difference observed here. In any case.. just mildly muting topics is pretty benign.. I was expecting promoting conspiracy theories or bots posting AI generated videos. The stuff the Russians (and I think Chinese as well?) botfarms do on Facebook is way crazier
retrochameleon 3y ago
I remember seeing a study that compared the content TikTok served to children in China vs other countries. I would have to look and find it again. But basically, Chinese children got lots of science, engineering, and other educational content, while other countries got your run of the mill generic time-wasting nothingburger nonsense kind of content. Food for thought.
- rchaud 3y ago
  Check out the difference between CNN International and CNN US. One is a proper news channel covering US and Intl affairs and competing for influence with BBC, NHK, France 24 and DW. The other is a editorial banter from talking heads discussing 2 political parties like they're competing with ESPN.
  - retrochameleon 3y ago
    Well yeah I don't rely on any major media outlets to stay informed. At least various perspectives are allowed to exist in America as opposed to bringing "black-vanned" in China
ericmcer 3y ago
This is 100% anecdotal and lacks any kind of research, but... I heard it was a more subtle propaganda. The American feeds could have messages about how bad the economy is, how futile working is in a corrupt system, how depressed and traumatized your peers are. On the opposite side you would fill it with messages about the virtues of hard work, stories of success and happiness, etc.
- rsaz 3y ago
  That seems possible, but that might just have to do with the state of the culture before TikTok anyways. Maybe the doom and gloom among young people in North America is because of other factors and content relating to it just happens to get more popular. China might have a more positive population right now, that makes and supports more positive content.

catskul2 3y ago

non-political is political. Do you imagine that there aren't people making political TikToks? Or that non-political themes don't affect politics? Or that bubble control doesn't affect politics?

contrarian1234 3y ago
Sorry, what? How are my dancing Korean girls and cat videos affecting politics?
- itishappy 3y ago
  You're focusing on them instead of politics. "Panem et circenses" is a political tactic.
  - contrarian1234 3y ago
    Gosh, no politics in my relaxing doom-scrolling video app. Is it some nefarious plot to pacify the evil capitalists.. or wait... maybe they just know what consumers want?
    - itishappy 3y ago
      Doesn't have to be a ploy or even intentional, but if boomers watch Fox while zoomers watch dancing... that has political implications.
- colpabar 3y ago
  It's confusing, but I think I can explain. If you are able to enjoy your life and not worry about something for any period of time, you are actually making a political statement that everyone else is wrong and you think they deserve to die. Every problem in the world must be your problem too, forever and always.
- hn_acker 3y ago
  catskul2's comment was very ambiguous, but a charitable interpretation of the first part > non-political is political. Do you imagine that there aren't people making political TikToks? is that you are indeed in a filter bubble of non-political content which exists alongside political content. One example of political content on TikTok within the larger Israel-Hamas war topic was the brief trend of commenting on Osama bin Laden's manifesto called "Letter to America" [1]. If you were (not saying that you are) knowingly ignoring the existence of political content on a specific topic on TikTok, then you would be making an inherently political decision (which does not mean that you should change your decision). [1] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/osama-bin-ladens-letter-to-america-tiktok-trend https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/osama-bin-ladens-lette...
suoduandao3 3y ago
>Non-political is political Is war also peace and freedom also slavery?
- mckn1ght 3y ago
  > Is war also peace Si vis pacem, para bellum > freedom also slavery Total freedom for one includes their ability to enslave others. My point is, you’re presenting false dichotomies to justify another (the political and the non-political).
  - suoduandao3 3y ago
    Is that what I'm doing? I thought I was making an Orwell reference to imply that a peculiar kind of very public gaslighting he warned about is not confined to the slogans of 1984's Party.

ffsm8 3y ago

Uuuh, yes? If your populist parties aren't on it, they're incompetent.

mathgorges 3y ago

I suppose that depends on what you mean by “propaganda”. Personally I think it can be convincingly argued that any message transmitted to you from a State is propaganda (Note: that means that I don’t believe that all propaganda is inherently evil, sometimes your interests align with a State. For example governments paying for advertising to discourage smoking is a great thing, IMO!) I’ve never lived in China, but I’ve spoken with many people that have and my understanding is that allegiance to the State (eg, the State’s sole stewards the CCP) is a big part of life there. I’ve even been told that staying in the good graces of the State’s only official political party is important if you want to do things like buy property or start a business. TikTok is administrated by humans, many of whom live in China. Those humans are, I assume, ambitious and want to do well for themselves and therefore likely want to appease the State. Therefore, when I read articles about how the administrators of TikTok can effectively decide what goes viral it makes me fear what I’ve begun calling ‘incidental’ propaganda. Probably those China-based administrations at TikTok don’t want to actively harm American society, but it’s certainly true that America and China have different interests in the world. I assume that any administrators in China will never choose to make something go viral if it is critical of the Chinese State or its interests. You can see how that might skew things for those that only get their news from TikTok, right? (This is my understanding and thinking on things right now given the information I have. I gladly welcome any new information if someone reads this and disagrees. But please be kind :))

contrarian1234 3y ago
Having lived there for several years I didn't find the state some ever-present aspect of life - but it doesn't seem particularly relevant Your line of reasoning seems fine, but it basically applies to any "other". If some European decides what goes viral, he is going to subject poor stupid american viewers to their nefarious European biases - and those biases may harm our society! Furthermore the biases of US based company executives may harm our society as well. I'll grant you that they may be less inclined, but gosh, rage bait and selling sweets to children does make them a whole lot of money. So the logic isn't wrong, but it seems to be applied selectively in cases that just happen to benefit large American tech companies - who are incapable of providing US consumers a product that's nearly as good as Tiktok Maybe biases in algorithms need to addressed.. But that should be done in a thoughtful unbiased holistic that applied equally to everyone - instead of this embarrassing kneejerk "the commies are taking over" kind of way

falcolas 3y ago

Are folks using it to distribute propaganda? Yes. Is there evidence - any evidence whatsoever - that CCP or bytedance is using tiktok to push a particular flavor of propaganda? No. That said, TikTok's moderation is quite unfriendly to LGBTQ+ and Palestine creators (even though they find ways around it).

tempsy 3y ago
The 60 minutes episode last year (?) insinuated that the CCP's main goal is social disorder eg they heavily restrict the Chinese version for kids to be education oriented where the American version is basically all ages softcore porn and ragebait.
- rchaud 3y ago
  In other words they have content restrictions in their country as with TV and other media, while the international version is more similar to its competition in Instagram?
- harkinian 3y ago
  The YouTube and Facebook short-video recommendations I got when those features launched were mostly young women wearing very little and doing something that I'm guessing is not the main point of the video. YouTube knows I like music, so it gave me women playing violin in tiny skirts, though I think this stopped happening at some point. I didn't even watch the videos, they insisted on putting them on the home page despite me giving 0 engagement. I finally adblocked the element.
- fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
  As someone who has actually used douyin (about one or two years ago) I can say for certain that that isn't true in the general case. Perhaps the rules are a bit stricter but I saw absolutely zero educational content at all in any form. I did see some military videos which seemed like propaganda as they showed up randomly but its hard to say if those only showed up because I watched the first one to its end for example. The only possibility is that they only enable the education mode if you are actually located in China or if you sign in as a child or something. But it didn't seem to be the default experience from what I saw first hand. It shows you want you want to see.

Invictus0 3y ago

Yes, see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39633652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39633652

whats_a_quasar 3y ago

Here is a study which compares the prevalence of topics on Instagram with the prevalence of topics on TikTok, and shows that topics which are sensitive to the CCP (Tibet, Hong Kong) occur 5-10x less frequently than comparable topics which are not sensitive to the CCP https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing...

contrarian1234 3y ago
What a strange study... They seem to just count the number of videos on certain hashtags. The huge discrepancy would require a very large fraction (but not all) of videos under certain hashtags to be banned/removed entirely. That would be immediately obvious when just uploading videos under that hashtags (which they don't do) They simply dismiss the alternate explanation .. that it's a demographic difference or a time difference. Uygher stuff was a hot topic before Tiktok became popular. And people that are super pumped about that issue and are posting about Chinese political issues probably are I'm guessing not the kind of people to be using Tiktok. Those are just wild guesses.. but there are a lot of ways to explain the difference observed here. In any case.. just mildly muting topics is pretty benign.. I was expecting promoting conspiracy theories or bots posting AI generated videos. The stuff the Russians (and I think Chinese as well?) botfarms do on Facebook is way crazier

retrochameleon 3y ago

I remember seeing a study that compared the content TikTok served to children in China vs other countries. I would have to look and find it again. But basically, Chinese children got lots of science, engineering, and other educational content, while other countries got your run of the mill generic time-wasting nothingburger nonsense kind of content. Food for thought.

rchaud 3y ago
Check out the difference between CNN International and CNN US. One is a proper news channel covering US and Intl affairs and competing for influence with BBC, NHK, France 24 and DW. The other is a editorial banter from talking heads discussing 2 political parties like they're competing with ESPN.
- retrochameleon 3y ago
  Well yeah I don't rely on any major media outlets to stay informed. At least various perspectives are allowed to exist in America as opposed to bringing "black-vanned" in China

ericmcer 3y ago

This is 100% anecdotal and lacks any kind of research, but... I heard it was a more subtle propaganda. The American feeds could have messages about how bad the economy is, how futile working is in a corrupt system, how depressed and traumatized your peers are. On the opposite side you would fill it with messages about the virtues of hard work, stories of success and happiness, etc.

rsaz 3y ago
That seems possible, but that might just have to do with the state of the culture before TikTok anyways. Maybe the doom and gloom among young people in North America is because of other factors and content relating to it just happens to get more popular. China might have a more positive population right now, that makes and supports more positive content.