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I first read this article several years ago and hated it. Giving it another shot, I still do. There are probably real issues that would come by abolishing time

I first read this article several years ago and hated it. Giving it another shot, I still do. There are probably real issues that would come by abolishing time zone but they aren't raised here. This article was written in 2015, when it was already extremely easy to search "What time does the work day start in Australia?". It's only gotten easier and easier as search engines implement smart widgets, of course, but even then it was not at all the medieval process described. (Finding a webcam in the city? As clever as it is stupid.) > "It would be neat if there was a lookup table for that kind of thing." There is now and always would be without timezones. Abolishing timezones doesn't mean people stop caring about time.

Analemma_ 3y ago
A lookup table for what? If everyone is living on the same time, what exactly are you looking up? The only answer is "local solar time", in which case you haven't "abolished time zones", you've just made them eight billion times worse by making them informal and person-dependent instead of statutory.
- digging 3y ago
  > A lookup table for what? Probably just about anything you want, as is already commonly available. Mostly, I expect nations would have official business hours for public employees which would be easily searchable if you needed to call someone on another side of the world, which is not any more difficult than looking up what time zone they live in is now.
- raziel2p 3y ago
  I would probably just look up sunrise/sunset for the country.
  - another-dave 3y ago
    to use the article's example though — if you want to call your uncle Steve, you're thinking: is it a good time? i.e. is he likely interruptable or would he be in bed/getting ready for work/at work? Sunrise/sunset doesn't really give you much of an idea for those, (as you move aware from the equator, at least)
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      In 2024 do you really call people unannounced without sending a text first anymore? I think it's becoming more and more expected to send a "hey is this a good time for a phone call" before calling.
      - another-dave 3y ago
        yeah this is exactly what I'd do alright. I think the move away from landlines to mobiles is increasing that expectation further too.
      - RestlessMind 3y ago
        Depends on the culture. In India, yes. In the US, no.
    - patmorgan23 3y ago
      You call, if they're available they'll answer. If they aren't you leave a voicemail and follow up with an email. If they don't want to be woken up in the middle of the night you turn on do not disturb on your phone (and most phones let you exempt specific contacts from DnD, or a 2nd call from the same number)
- minkzilla 3y ago
  The thing that would probably be in the lookup table would be official government business hours or something of that nature. It could also be schools, shops, or restaurants. That gives you a good idea of when "daytime" has started regardless of if it is winter or summer.
  - toss1 3y ago
    Why, we could even publish our own individual "official hours". Those of us who stay up late and go to work later (referencing solar visibility) could publish later hours, and those of us who rise before the sun and retire shortly after dark can publish those hours. Eight billion time zones, all available at a glance, with their contact info — Yay! (I'm not sure myself if this is real or sarcasm, but if it was all UTC, it sure would be one good convenience for caller and callee)
- ebiester 3y ago
  They're already informal and person-dependent. When does someone wake up when they're on night shift? The problem we have today is that we have mass confusion as to when common events like meetings are. In a distributed society like ours, it doesn't matter if I wake up at 04:00 or 17:00 but it does matter when the basketball game is or the meeting is or when the company in Lebanon starts. The constraints of our society have changed. People in India work the hours in London. People in Florida work the hours of California, and vice versa. And as we see, we already have countries that span four "natural" time zones and Western China has some ability to adjust.
- jasode 3y ago
  >A lookup table for what? If everyone is living on the same time, what exactly are you looking up? In the context of the webpage where that is quoted, it means looking up the typical activity for the time in that location. By avoiding the look up of time zones, you haven't really reduced complexity and only shifted it somewhere else because now you're looking up relevant "activity" windows for that location. You always have 2 components of a key-value dictionary in either system. (1) the "fixed" a familiar knowledge you have as a "key" and then (2) the lookup "value" - Timezones system: (1) fixed knowledge key is "I know people are awake doing school & business between ~8am to ~5pm and sleep ~9pm to ~6am" for entire globe --> (2) now lookup what timezone they're in : e.g. "California TZ is UTC-07:00" - no timezones : (1) I know the entire globe is on identical time --> (2) now lookup what numerical values correspond to "awake vs sleep time" in that part of the globe : e.g. "California school/business hours are ~3pm-12am UTC"
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    This is a very nice summary of what I was feeling but couldn't find words for. Those advocating for abolishing timezones are merely shifting one problem to another, without any obvious advantages which can overcome the obvious disadvantages.
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      Things like "when do people start work in Brisbane" is not universal across all people in Brisbane, knowing "on average when do people start work in Brisbane" is not terribly useful Today, if you need to contact a business in Brisbane, you start by looking up their hours, then you convert timezones, then you plan your contact Without timezones, you no longer need the second step. Similarly if you are planning a meeting with someone in Brisban you can just say "Does tomorrow between 4 and 8 work for you", with no timezones involved Honestly seems like an obvious advantage to me
      - RestlessMind 3y ago
        But what about local Bisbanians? They have lived their whole life with a certain timetable. And now suddenly you want to impose a new timetable on them? For what benefit? So far, I used to think that people were joking when they advocated abolishing timezones. Now that it seems some are actually serious, then I have a serious question - how do you plan to convince the local population to adopt a completely new time? For example, I am in SFBA and if there is a vote to shift our time by 8hrs to align with UTC (global timezone), I would vote no. I don't see any benefit in shifting my day by 8hrs and instead of sleeping from 10 to 6, start sleeping from 6 to 2. Oh wait, or would it be 2 to 10? Ah nevermind, too complicated. Let's just continue my current lifestyle because the cost of switch is too high for no obvious benefit to me.
- Steltek 3y ago
  Oh my goodness, the irony of your username while arguing against precisely defining the sun's position in the sky! But you're still correct: When most people are using time in conversation, they need it to be meaningful with respect to solar time. If your replacement method can't do that, no one will adopt it.
masterspy7 3y ago
Yea I think this author completely ignores what you can do with technology. First of all, most people, today, will already Google search 'what time is it in Australia?' so there is already a lookup step. No imagine replacing this step with 'is now a good time to call someone in Australia?' or 'what local times of mine are good to call someone in Australia?'. You can have a tool/app/algo which accounts for the differences in daylight, cultural differences in working hours, holidays etc and just tells you what a good time is.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- strongpigeon 3y ago
  Being able to reason about something as fundamental as time without assistive technologies seems pretty important to me.
  - Shrezzing 3y ago
    I fully agree with the point you're making, but to be pedantic, clocks and timezones are themselves assistive technologies. The precursor to them was taking a look at your shadow and making an educated guess.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - digging 3y ago
    Can you do that now? I have friends in other countries and I don't know what time zone they're in off the top of my head.
    - strongpigeon 3y ago
      For the most part, yes? Sure, the very first time I talk to someone in a new time zone I have to look it up, but IME with working with globally distributed teams you get used real fast to thinking "China is at -9 (+ 1 day)" or "Amsterdam is at +8".
aeternum 3y ago
Agreed, I think it's worth a point-by-point takedown of the article's concerns: > causes the question "What time is it there?" to be useless/unanswerable necessitates significant changes to the way in which normal people talk about time This is a significant benefit actually. The answer to the question would be: It's exactly the same time everywhere. > convolutes timetables, where present If convolute means simplify then agreed. Flights would no longer sometimes arrive yesterday or go back in time. Sure the position of the sun might be different at your destination but you can be assured that you will not land in the past. > means "days" are no longer the same as "days" Fair criticism but already days are not days. If a team on the other side of the globe tells you they will get it done today, are they referring to your time zone or theirs? This is easily solved by simply saying "I will get it done by 0500 (utc)" which is more precise and probably better anyway. > complicates both secular and religious law It's already complicated. When does fasting end if you live in the artic circle for example? It's easy enough to map the solar day onto the utc time. Sunrise and sunset fluctuate anyway based on latitude, longitude, local laws, and even terrain. > is a staggering inconvenience for a minimum of five billion people Why? > makes it near-impossible to reason about time in other parts of the world You already need to consider the offset to your local time, knowing a single offset to UTC rather than having to subtract two offsets is far from near-impossible, it's actually far simpler. > does not mean everybody gets up at the same time, goes to work at the same time, or goes to bed at the same time People already don't do this
- chrismcb 3y ago
  What flights go back in time? I guess if you take off near the edge of one timezone and land near the edge of another. But so what? Why is that an issue? Most times I'm dealing with things local, I didn't really care what time it is elsewhere. And this is said by someone who just had several calls with people from around the world. Id rather deal with trying to figure out what time somewhere else is every once in a while rather than trying to understand what time midday is.
  - hobos_delight 3y ago
    Generally when they cross the international date line - for example when traveling from Sydney to San Francisco, I can take off at midday and land at ~7am on the same day local time.
WelcomeShorty 3y ago
> "What time does the work day start in Australia?" Is a really bad example, since Australia has 6... or 9, depending how you look at it. https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/australia https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/australia

Analemma_ 3y ago

A lookup table for what? If everyone is living on the same time, what exactly are you looking up? The only answer is "local solar time", in which case you haven't "abolished time zones", you've just made them eight billion times worse by making them informal and person-dependent instead of statutory.

digging 3y ago
> A lookup table for what? Probably just about anything you want, as is already commonly available. Mostly, I expect nations would have official business hours for public employees which would be easily searchable if you needed to call someone on another side of the world, which is not any more difficult than looking up what time zone they live in is now.
raziel2p 3y ago
I would probably just look up sunrise/sunset for the country.
- another-dave 3y ago
  to use the article's example though — if you want to call your uncle Steve, you're thinking: is it a good time? i.e. is he likely interruptable or would he be in bed/getting ready for work/at work? Sunrise/sunset doesn't really give you much of an idea for those, (as you move aware from the equator, at least)
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    In 2024 do you really call people unannounced without sending a text first anymore? I think it's becoming more and more expected to send a "hey is this a good time for a phone call" before calling.
    - another-dave 3y ago
      yeah this is exactly what I'd do alright. I think the move away from landlines to mobiles is increasing that expectation further too.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      Depends on the culture. In India, yes. In the US, no.
  - patmorgan23 3y ago
    You call, if they're available they'll answer. If they aren't you leave a voicemail and follow up with an email. If they don't want to be woken up in the middle of the night you turn on do not disturb on your phone (and most phones let you exempt specific contacts from DnD, or a 2nd call from the same number)
minkzilla 3y ago
The thing that would probably be in the lookup table would be official government business hours or something of that nature. It could also be schools, shops, or restaurants. That gives you a good idea of when "daytime" has started regardless of if it is winter or summer.
- toss1 3y ago
  Why, we could even publish our own individual "official hours". Those of us who stay up late and go to work later (referencing solar visibility) could publish later hours, and those of us who rise before the sun and retire shortly after dark can publish those hours. Eight billion time zones, all available at a glance, with their contact info — Yay! (I'm not sure myself if this is real or sarcasm, but if it was all UTC, it sure would be one good convenience for caller and callee)
ebiester 3y ago
They're already informal and person-dependent. When does someone wake up when they're on night shift? The problem we have today is that we have mass confusion as to when common events like meetings are. In a distributed society like ours, it doesn't matter if I wake up at 04:00 or 17:00 but it does matter when the basketball game is or the meeting is or when the company in Lebanon starts. The constraints of our society have changed. People in India work the hours in London. People in Florida work the hours of California, and vice versa. And as we see, we already have countries that span four "natural" time zones and Western China has some ability to adjust.
jasode 3y ago
>A lookup table for what? If everyone is living on the same time, what exactly are you looking up? In the context of the webpage where that is quoted, it means looking up the typical activity for the time in that location. By avoiding the look up of time zones, you haven't really reduced complexity and only shifted it somewhere else because now you're looking up relevant "activity" windows for that location. You always have 2 components of a key-value dictionary in either system. (1) the "fixed" a familiar knowledge you have as a "key" and then (2) the lookup "value" - Timezones system: (1) fixed knowledge key is "I know people are awake doing school & business between ~8am to ~5pm and sleep ~9pm to ~6am" for entire globe --> (2) now lookup what timezone they're in : e.g. "California TZ is UTC-07:00" - no timezones : (1) I know the entire globe is on identical time --> (2) now lookup what numerical values correspond to "awake vs sleep time" in that part of the globe : e.g. "California school/business hours are ~3pm-12am UTC"
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  This is a very nice summary of what I was feeling but couldn't find words for. Those advocating for abolishing timezones are merely shifting one problem to another, without any obvious advantages which can overcome the obvious disadvantages.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    Things like "when do people start work in Brisbane" is not universal across all people in Brisbane, knowing "on average when do people start work in Brisbane" is not terribly useful Today, if you need to contact a business in Brisbane, you start by looking up their hours, then you convert timezones, then you plan your contact Without timezones, you no longer need the second step. Similarly if you are planning a meeting with someone in Brisban you can just say "Does tomorrow between 4 and 8 work for you", with no timezones involved Honestly seems like an obvious advantage to me
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      But what about local Bisbanians? They have lived their whole life with a certain timetable. And now suddenly you want to impose a new timetable on them? For what benefit? So far, I used to think that people were joking when they advocated abolishing timezones. Now that it seems some are actually serious, then I have a serious question - how do you plan to convince the local population to adopt a completely new time? For example, I am in SFBA and if there is a vote to shift our time by 8hrs to align with UTC (global timezone), I would vote no. I don't see any benefit in shifting my day by 8hrs and instead of sleeping from 10 to 6, start sleeping from 6 to 2. Oh wait, or would it be 2 to 10? Ah nevermind, too complicated. Let's just continue my current lifestyle because the cost of switch is too high for no obvious benefit to me.
Steltek 3y ago
Oh my goodness, the irony of your username while arguing against precisely defining the sun's position in the sky! But you're still correct: When most people are using time in conversation, they need it to be meaningful with respect to solar time. If your replacement method can't do that, no one will adopt it.

masterspy7 3y ago

Yea I think this author completely ignores what you can do with technology. First of all, most people, today, will already Google search 'what time is it in Australia?' so there is already a lookup step. No imagine replacing this step with 'is now a good time to call someone in Australia?' or 'what local times of mine are good to call someone in Australia?'. You can have a tool/app/algo which accounts for the differences in daylight, cultural differences in working hours, holidays etc and just tells you what a good time is.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
strongpigeon 3y ago
Being able to reason about something as fundamental as time without assistive technologies seems pretty important to me.
- Shrezzing 3y ago
  I fully agree with the point you're making, but to be pedantic, clocks and timezones are themselves assistive technologies. The precursor to them was taking a look at your shadow and making an educated guess.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- digging 3y ago
  Can you do that now? I have friends in other countries and I don't know what time zone they're in off the top of my head.
  - strongpigeon 3y ago
    For the most part, yes? Sure, the very first time I talk to someone in a new time zone I have to look it up, but IME with working with globally distributed teams you get used real fast to thinking "China is at -9 (+ 1 day)" or "Amsterdam is at +8".

aeternum 3y ago

Agreed, I think it's worth a point-by-point takedown of the article's concerns: > causes the question "What time is it there?" to be useless/unanswerable necessitates significant changes to the way in which normal people talk about time This is a significant benefit actually. The answer to the question would be: It's exactly the same time everywhere. > convolutes timetables, where present If convolute means simplify then agreed. Flights would no longer sometimes arrive yesterday or go back in time. Sure the position of the sun might be different at your destination but you can be assured that you will not land in the past. > means "days" are no longer the same as "days" Fair criticism but already days are not days. If a team on the other side of the globe tells you they will get it done today, are they referring to your time zone or theirs? This is easily solved by simply saying "I will get it done by 0500 (utc)" which is more precise and probably better anyway. > complicates both secular and religious law It's already complicated. When does fasting end if you live in the artic circle for example? It's easy enough to map the solar day onto the utc time. Sunrise and sunset fluctuate anyway based on latitude, longitude, local laws, and even terrain. > is a staggering inconvenience for a minimum of five billion people Why? > makes it near-impossible to reason about time in other parts of the world You already need to consider the offset to your local time, knowing a single offset to UTC rather than having to subtract two offsets is far from near-impossible, it's actually far simpler. > does not mean everybody gets up at the same time, goes to work at the same time, or goes to bed at the same time People already don't do this

chrismcb 3y ago
What flights go back in time? I guess if you take off near the edge of one timezone and land near the edge of another. But so what? Why is that an issue? Most times I'm dealing with things local, I didn't really care what time it is elsewhere. And this is said by someone who just had several calls with people from around the world. Id rather deal with trying to figure out what time somewhere else is every once in a while rather than trying to understand what time midday is.
- hobos_delight 3y ago
  Generally when they cross the international date line - for example when traveling from Sydney to San Francisco, I can take off at midday and land at ~7am on the same day local time.

WelcomeShorty 3y ago

> "What time does the work day start in Australia?" Is a really bad example, since Australia has 6... or 9, depending how you look at it. https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/australia https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/australia