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Seems like what you said can be summed up as: - Yes, the privacy infractions listed by esbranson are accurate. - But we don't have an alternative right now.

Seems like what you said can be summed up as: - Yes, the privacy infractions listed by esbranson are accurate. - But we don't have an alternative right now. - But something better is coming! It's totally right around the corner!

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Perfect is the enemy of good enough. The call to action is to ensure, through pressure, that the desired outcome is reached. Are we on track? It appears so.
- generalizations 3y ago
  IDK. I've seen too much bureaucracy where a bad solution (with properties the bureaucrat likes) is implemented with promises to improve later (into something the petitioner wants). But after the initial solution is implemented, all they gotta do is procrastinate - and the whole time they procrastinate, they get what they want. Why change it? All the bureaucrat has gotta deal with is a bit of complaining.
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    The far more common problem with bureaucracy is that nothing ever gets done because every incremental step is met with "but this isn't perfect so you shouldn't do it!" from one faction or another, which ensures that no step is ever made, if given credence.
    - generalizations 3y ago
      The other problem with bureaucracy: "We must do something! This is something. Let's do it." Just because it's important to get something done, doesn't mean we should be satisfied with something that messes other stuff up.
      - sanderjd 3y ago
        Again, the far more common problem is the one I described. Lots of people say the problem you're describing is the bigger problem, but I've spent a lot of time in the adult world now, and I conclude that no, that is not the bigger problem, at least in the US. I'm very pleased to see dissatisfaction of the form "this isn't good enough; here are ideas for incremental improvements to it", but have totally lost my patience with the far more common "this isn't good enough; we should do nothing instead".
        generalizations 3y ago
        Well, I agree it's the more overt problem. But having spent some time in the adult world myself, I find that the larger problem is partial solutions piled on partial solutions, burying users in piles of steaming bureaucracy that take time and effort to wade through. Like good software, it requires principles and discipline to construct correctly and avoid 'technical debt' - though a quick&dirty solution will certainly work in the short term. I've noticed as well, it's quite common that when a well-constructed solution takes much more time (and may be harder to identify) than an quick fix, proponents of the quick fix will claim that the 'do it right' folks are actually saying we should do nothing.
        sanderjd 3y ago
        We'll have to just agree to disagree :) We simply have different philosophies; you're a perfectionist whereas I'm an incrementalist. We both have life experiences and probably personality traits that lead us to our differing preferences. In my view, "partial solutions piled on partial solutions" is just life as a human being, where the alternative to that is not perfect solutions with no piling required, but rather no solutions. And yes, it is just like software, where incrementalism is also the better approach, in my view. > proponents of the quick fix will claim that the 'do it right' folks are actually saying we should do nothing. We don't think you're actually saying we should do nothing, just that it's the common end result, despite your best intentions. And in the sphere of politics in particular, I think well-meaning people who really do want better solutions are often used by more cynical people who really do want to do nothing, for their own ends. Like the tax software industry lobbyists, in this case. Or like how old school environmentalists often find themselves aligned with fossil fuel industry lobbyists when it comes to building renewable or nuclear power generation, or transmission lines. I don't begrudge people their dislike of partial solutions, I just don't subscribe to the same strategy.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  Good enough is the enemy of resolve obvious problems. These aren't intractable, or even difficult, problems to resolve. Literally the only thing you have to change is some text.
  - joshuamorton 3y ago
    > Literally the only thing you have to change is some text. The corollary to this is that the text is difficult to change for precisely the same reason that people dislike it: it holds legal baggage. If it were "just" some text, you could ignore it. But it's text that is related to contracts and agreements that would need to be renegotiated and audited and more I'm not thinking of.
    - thomastjeffery 3y ago
      Yes, that is the process we are talking about. It didn't suddenly become this hard when I voiced my criticism: it was the same level of difficulty from the beginning, and will not get any easier by simply ignoring my criticisms. Progress must include work: otherwise it is no longer progress.
      - joshuamorton 3y ago
        But the problems are not "just changing some text" they're renegotiating contracts and making technical modifications and... My objection isn't to your opinion that we should make progress or change, it is to trivializing the complexity of that change.
BowBun 3y ago
> But we don't have an alternative right now. They literally have an alternative that they've already rolled out. And they've stated the reasons they can't use the more modern IDP yet. What's so hard to understand about a v1?
sanderjd 3y ago
Not sure whether this is a criticism of or agreement with the parent comment. This seems like both an accurate summary of that comment, and the right path forward. Don't make perfect the enemy of good. The rent-seeking of tax preparation businesses is a bigger problem than these privacy issues. That doesn't mean those aren't also a problem. (And I'd be shocked if Intuit has a less problematic set of terms with respect to privacy...) But what the IRS is doing here is the correct prioritization of problems to attack.
- generalizations 3y ago
  > The rent-seeking of tax preparation businesses is a bigger problem than these privacy issues. > But what the IRS is doing here is the correct prioritization I read this as: "saving money, and keeping it out of unscrupulous hands, is more important than preserving our privacy and freedom". I don't agree with that, and you shouldn't assume that others agree with your take.
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    Yes, you read it correctly. We have an honest disagreement on this. I'm not sure what makes you think I am assuming others agree with my take. I'm just describing and arguing for my view on it. Indeed, I assume my take on that trade-off is the less popular one amongst the commenters, and perhaps also the readers, of this thread. But I do think it is the far more popular view among the population at large. And part of the reason I'm commenting here is to point that out.
    - generalizations 3y ago
      Only reason I thought you were making that assumption was this line: "But what the IRS is doing here is the correct prioritization of problems to attack." It comes across as more than a personal opinion.
      - sanderjd 3y ago
        It's one of these frustrating things where I already feel like I add "in my view" and "in my opinion" and "I think" and "I feel like" to too many of my sentences, but then inevitably someone will read a statement of opinion as an attempt to state as fact something that is central to the dispute at hand. I've never been sure how to square this circle.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Perfect is the enemy of good enough. The call to action is to ensure, through pressure, that the desired outcome is reached. Are we on track? It appears so.

generalizations 3y ago
IDK. I've seen too much bureaucracy where a bad solution (with properties the bureaucrat likes) is implemented with promises to improve later (into something the petitioner wants). But after the initial solution is implemented, all they gotta do is procrastinate - and the whole time they procrastinate, they get what they want. Why change it? All the bureaucrat has gotta deal with is a bit of complaining.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  The far more common problem with bureaucracy is that nothing ever gets done because every incremental step is met with "but this isn't perfect so you shouldn't do it!" from one faction or another, which ensures that no step is ever made, if given credence.
  - generalizations 3y ago
    The other problem with bureaucracy: "We must do something! This is something. Let's do it." Just because it's important to get something done, doesn't mean we should be satisfied with something that messes other stuff up.
    - sanderjd 3y ago
      Again, the far more common problem is the one I described. Lots of people say the problem you're describing is the bigger problem, but I've spent a lot of time in the adult world now, and I conclude that no, that is not the bigger problem, at least in the US. I'm very pleased to see dissatisfaction of the form "this isn't good enough; here are ideas for incremental improvements to it", but have totally lost my patience with the far more common "this isn't good enough; we should do nothing instead".
      - generalizations 3y ago
        Well, I agree it's the more overt problem. But having spent some time in the adult world myself, I find that the larger problem is partial solutions piled on partial solutions, burying users in piles of steaming bureaucracy that take time and effort to wade through. Like good software, it requires principles and discipline to construct correctly and avoid 'technical debt' - though a quick&dirty solution will certainly work in the short term. I've noticed as well, it's quite common that when a well-constructed solution takes much more time (and may be harder to identify) than an quick fix, proponents of the quick fix will claim that the 'do it right' folks are actually saying we should do nothing.
        sanderjd 3y ago
        We'll have to just agree to disagree :) We simply have different philosophies; you're a perfectionist whereas I'm an incrementalist. We both have life experiences and probably personality traits that lead us to our differing preferences. In my view, "partial solutions piled on partial solutions" is just life as a human being, where the alternative to that is not perfect solutions with no piling required, but rather no solutions. And yes, it is just like software, where incrementalism is also the better approach, in my view. > proponents of the quick fix will claim that the 'do it right' folks are actually saying we should do nothing. We don't think you're actually saying we should do nothing, just that it's the common end result, despite your best intentions. And in the sphere of politics in particular, I think well-meaning people who really do want better solutions are often used by more cynical people who really do want to do nothing, for their own ends. Like the tax software industry lobbyists, in this case. Or like how old school environmentalists often find themselves aligned with fossil fuel industry lobbyists when it comes to building renewable or nuclear power generation, or transmission lines. I don't begrudge people their dislike of partial solutions, I just don't subscribe to the same strategy.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
Good enough is the enemy of resolve obvious problems. These aren't intractable, or even difficult, problems to resolve. Literally the only thing you have to change is some text.
- joshuamorton 3y ago
  > Literally the only thing you have to change is some text. The corollary to this is that the text is difficult to change for precisely the same reason that people dislike it: it holds legal baggage. If it were "just" some text, you could ignore it. But it's text that is related to contracts and agreements that would need to be renegotiated and audited and more I'm not thinking of.
  - thomastjeffery 3y ago
    Yes, that is the process we are talking about. It didn't suddenly become this hard when I voiced my criticism: it was the same level of difficulty from the beginning, and will not get any easier by simply ignoring my criticisms. Progress must include work: otherwise it is no longer progress.
    - joshuamorton 3y ago
      But the problems are not "just changing some text" they're renegotiating contracts and making technical modifications and... My objection isn't to your opinion that we should make progress or change, it is to trivializing the complexity of that change.

BowBun 3y ago

> But we don't have an alternative right now. They literally have an alternative that they've already rolled out. And they've stated the reasons they can't use the more modern IDP yet. What's so hard to understand about a v1?

sanderjd 3y ago

Not sure whether this is a criticism of or agreement with the parent comment. This seems like both an accurate summary of that comment, and the right path forward. Don't make perfect the enemy of good. The rent-seeking of tax preparation businesses is a bigger problem than these privacy issues. That doesn't mean those aren't also a problem. (And I'd be shocked if Intuit has a less problematic set of terms with respect to privacy...) But what the IRS is doing here is the correct prioritization of problems to attack.

generalizations 3y ago
> The rent-seeking of tax preparation businesses is a bigger problem than these privacy issues. > But what the IRS is doing here is the correct prioritization I read this as: "saving money, and keeping it out of unscrupulous hands, is more important than preserving our privacy and freedom". I don't agree with that, and you shouldn't assume that others agree with your take.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Yes, you read it correctly. We have an honest disagreement on this. I'm not sure what makes you think I am assuming others agree with my take. I'm just describing and arguing for my view on it. Indeed, I assume my take on that trade-off is the less popular one amongst the commenters, and perhaps also the readers, of this thread. But I do think it is the far more popular view among the population at large. And part of the reason I'm commenting here is to point that out.
  - generalizations 3y ago
    Only reason I thought you were making that assumption was this line: "But what the IRS is doing here is the correct prioritization of problems to attack." It comes across as more than a personal opinion.
    - sanderjd 3y ago
      It's one of these frustrating things where I already feel like I add "in my view" and "in my opinion" and "I think" and "I feel like" to too many of my sentences, but then inevitably someone will read a statement of opinion as an attempt to state as fact something that is central to the dispute at hand. I've never been sure how to square this circle.