4 ms·

It's entirely explainable, I just explained it in the other comment, "Somatosenstory representations are built by the sensory-motor system." Do you really thin

It's entirely explainable, I just explained it in the other comment, "Somatosenstory representations are built by the sensory-motor system." Do you really think the meat of my body is growing so as to record every symbol i've seen, or even an induction across them? I find this inability to think outside of the switching frequencies of a silicon chip as they model the patterns of text tokens on reddit, absolutely bizarre. You're an ape, have some appreciation for it. You're much more interesting than what openai can steal from amazon's ebook library.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
My view is opposite. "inability to think outside of the switching frequencies of a silicon chip" Why can't you "think outside", and conceptualize that this 'internal subjective experience' we are having, is not unique, and could be taking place inside a silicon based NN? It helps to meditate and observe your own thoughts, and how they arise. You can begin to realize that you don't 'think'. You don't think about what to think and thus think it. Thoughts just become un-bidden. Its back to the Schopenhauer quote "“A man can do as he will, but not will as he will.” Then, when you begin to notice the mechanistic nature of your own mind, you will have less resistance to how 'silicon' is also reacting. Silicon and Carbon both reacting to inputs, processing.
- deleted 3y ago
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- mjburgess 3y ago
  Organisms are mechanistic, there's nothing "not mechanistic" about the mind. Its insane to suppose that somatosensory representation building, which requires organic neruoplasticity to be connected to the organically adaptive neuromotor system, etc. etc. etc. can just be instantiated in a bit of sand. This is deeply mystical, pseudoscience. You're credulously throwing away any kind of empirical analysis of the world in terms of it's properties and their mechanisms for the deeply mystical view that, unique in amongst all properties of the world, consciousness needs no empirical analysis of the properties of the systems which have it. Of gold we ask: what makes it shine; of fire: what makes it hot.. and so on for everything empirical in the world. But with the mind we must stop! No! No! do not do any science! please that might mean we can't be scammed by a VC out of our investment money; i cannot babble endlessly about scifi star treck episodes! no no! please do not rob me of my scifi religion! please please, do not ruin commander data for me! Well there is no commander data. And the properties of gold are not those of sand, nor those of animals. And just as no bit of silicon will be trasumted into gold by the running of an NN on its electric field; likewise, no bit of silicon will desire or wish or conceive of anything. We are biological organisms; we do not have souls, even if in your religion, the soul is "a pattern". Your consciousness will not be uploaded; commander data will never visit; and your local VC shyster is on a stock manipulation grift to bamboozle you out of money.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    Really. I'm not sure what you are getting at. I think from your last few sentences. We actually agree, and maybe just miss-understanding. I'm agreeing, to the mechanistic nature. Nothing Mystical. Just physical world. No souls. I was trying to get you to see the mechanistic nature of mind, then you tell me to stop being Mystical? You think that generating a mind from sand is 'mystical'. "just be instantiated in a bit of sand?" But don't seem to realize Carbon, is also just a basic element. So why is any reasoning based from Carbon, Non-mystical? But Silicon is? Then some other sentences seem to be </sarcasm>. But in these discussions it is hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic or making a point. Like this sentence:: "We are biological organisms; we do not have souls, even if in your religion, the soul is "a pattern". Your consciousness will not be uploaded; commander data will never visit; and your local VC shyster is on a stock manipulation grift to bamboozle you out of money." I totally agree, no soul, it is a pattern. That does not mean we can't create a 'mind' from silicon, that is based on a pattern, and be equivalent in functionality. I also agree, we will never be uploaded. I don't think we'll ever be able to measure the human neurons to a degree to allow this. But that doesn't mean we'll never build a NN with as many connections as a human brain has, and that it wont also be able to have a 'pattern' of self. And, there is a lot of VC Shysters out there, doesn't mean a lot of real progress is not being made.
    - mjburgess 3y ago
      You think that reality is a pattern, and that properties obtain from configurations. Eg., that, of course, we can transmute gold into lead. Alchemy. The problem with this is that the patterns have semantics, a pattern of wood does not have the same properties as a pattern of lead. The pattern isnt the important bit. If you want to turn hydrogen into lead you first have to fire up a star and wait a very very long time, and as protons and electrons bundle up in every more complex configurations interactions between them come to dominate their properties... so that lead is nothing at all like hydrogen. What is the only known element that enables "weak polymerisation", ie., adaptive self-replication at the molecular level: carbon. What are the properties of all intelligent systems known to science? They're organic. Why? This is no coincidence. In order to think, you have to grow -- self-replicate at every level from the cellular to organs, tissues... the material placitity of the machine that holds your thoughts has to itself adapt its structure to that of your body (the device which explores the world). Now, should we expect hydrogen to do that? No. Silicon? No. Why would we? Ah, only because we loath the idea of being apes, and of oozing.. our biological disgust instincts tell us to run far away from it. How more beautiful if, like in genesis, we can fashion man out of clay and breath in life. but alas, we arent clay; nor will clay ever think or desire or want.. clay cannot take impressions of the world without becoming an impression. It cannot adapt.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

My view is opposite. "inability to think outside of the switching frequencies of a silicon chip" Why can't you "think outside", and conceptualize that this 'internal subjective experience' we are having, is not unique, and could be taking place inside a silicon based NN? It helps to meditate and observe your own thoughts, and how they arise. You can begin to realize that you don't 'think'. You don't think about what to think and thus think it. Thoughts just become un-bidden. Its back to the Schopenhauer quote "“A man can do as he will, but not will as he will.” Then, when you begin to notice the mechanistic nature of your own mind, you will have less resistance to how 'silicon' is also reacting. Silicon and Carbon both reacting to inputs, processing.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mjburgess 3y ago
Organisms are mechanistic, there's nothing "not mechanistic" about the mind. Its insane to suppose that somatosensory representation building, which requires organic neruoplasticity to be connected to the organically adaptive neuromotor system, etc. etc. etc. can just be instantiated in a bit of sand. This is deeply mystical, pseudoscience. You're credulously throwing away any kind of empirical analysis of the world in terms of it's properties and their mechanisms for the deeply mystical view that, unique in amongst all properties of the world, consciousness needs no empirical analysis of the properties of the systems which have it. Of gold we ask: what makes it shine; of fire: what makes it hot.. and so on for everything empirical in the world. But with the mind we must stop! No! No! do not do any science! please that might mean we can't be scammed by a VC out of our investment money; i cannot babble endlessly about scifi star treck episodes! no no! please do not rob me of my scifi religion! please please, do not ruin commander data for me! Well there is no commander data. And the properties of gold are not those of sand, nor those of animals. And just as no bit of silicon will be trasumted into gold by the running of an NN on its electric field; likewise, no bit of silicon will desire or wish or conceive of anything. We are biological organisms; we do not have souls, even if in your religion, the soul is "a pattern". Your consciousness will not be uploaded; commander data will never visit; and your local VC shyster is on a stock manipulation grift to bamboozle you out of money.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Really. I'm not sure what you are getting at. I think from your last few sentences. We actually agree, and maybe just miss-understanding. I'm agreeing, to the mechanistic nature. Nothing Mystical. Just physical world. No souls. I was trying to get you to see the mechanistic nature of mind, then you tell me to stop being Mystical? You think that generating a mind from sand is 'mystical'. "just be instantiated in a bit of sand?" But don't seem to realize Carbon, is also just a basic element. So why is any reasoning based from Carbon, Non-mystical? But Silicon is? Then some other sentences seem to be </sarcasm>. But in these discussions it is hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic or making a point. Like this sentence:: "We are biological organisms; we do not have souls, even if in your religion, the soul is "a pattern". Your consciousness will not be uploaded; commander data will never visit; and your local VC shyster is on a stock manipulation grift to bamboozle you out of money." I totally agree, no soul, it is a pattern. That does not mean we can't create a 'mind' from silicon, that is based on a pattern, and be equivalent in functionality. I also agree, we will never be uploaded. I don't think we'll ever be able to measure the human neurons to a degree to allow this. But that doesn't mean we'll never build a NN with as many connections as a human brain has, and that it wont also be able to have a 'pattern' of self. And, there is a lot of VC Shysters out there, doesn't mean a lot of real progress is not being made.
  - mjburgess 3y ago
    You think that reality is a pattern, and that properties obtain from configurations. Eg., that, of course, we can transmute gold into lead. Alchemy. The problem with this is that the patterns have semantics, a pattern of wood does not have the same properties as a pattern of lead. The pattern isnt the important bit. If you want to turn hydrogen into lead you first have to fire up a star and wait a very very long time, and as protons and electrons bundle up in every more complex configurations interactions between them come to dominate their properties... so that lead is nothing at all like hydrogen. What is the only known element that enables "weak polymerisation", ie., adaptive self-replication at the molecular level: carbon. What are the properties of all intelligent systems known to science? They're organic. Why? This is no coincidence. In order to think, you have to grow -- self-replicate at every level from the cellular to organs, tissues... the material placitity of the machine that holds your thoughts has to itself adapt its structure to that of your body (the device which explores the world). Now, should we expect hydrogen to do that? No. Silicon? No. Why would we? Ah, only because we loath the idea of being apes, and of oozing.. our biological disgust instincts tell us to run far away from it. How more beautiful if, like in genesis, we can fashion man out of clay and breath in life. but alas, we arent clay; nor will clay ever think or desire or want.. clay cannot take impressions of the world without becoming an impression. It cannot adapt.