4 ms·

actually, one can argue that bipartisan support is the last thing you want because that's how 90% violate the rights for the 10% (and eventually, to 100% since

actually, one can argue that bipartisan support is the last thing you want because that's how 90% violate the rights for the 10% (and eventually, to 100% since we all take turns at being part of the 10%). Case in point: Patriot ACT. SOPA attempts. Asset Forfeiture. In contrast, see the most unruly place in Europe: Switzerland. Politicians bicker about inane things like updating language spelling, which caused huge uproar in 2006 [0] . 10 years later, you had the Cow Horns debate [1] of 2018, and its own sort of epilogue with the firestorm around cowbells [2] You also have a weak executive with rotating posts of only 1 year. [3] So, nothing gets done (by design). And when policians work out a small miracle via bipartisanship, they still must jump the hurdle of direct democracy and win over the population. Moreover, anything can be reversed with a very small minority [3,4] calling for a referendum, anytime. Yet Switzerland its the longest living democracy in the world with insanely high levels of development and prosperity. [0] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/culture/chaos-fears-loom-over-spelling-row/4042016 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/culture/chaos-fears-loom-over-s... [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/life-aging/podcast_campaigning-for-cow-horns/42099330 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/life-aging/podcast_campaigning-... [2]https://www.iamexpat.ch/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/cowbell-noise-complaint-switzerland-captures-world-headlines https://www.iamexpat.ch/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/cowbell-noi... [3] https://www.thelocal.ch/20211129/a-foreigners-guide-to-understanding-swiss-politics-in-five-minutes https://www.thelocal.ch/20211129/a-foreigners-guide-to-under... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_2014_Swiss_immigration_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_2014_Swiss_immigratio...

throwaway2037 3y ago
> Switzerland its the longest living democracy in the world I Googled that and found: This highly authoritative article from World Economic Forum that disagrees with you: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/countries-are-the-worlds-oldest-democracies/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/countries-are-the-wor... And, a bunch of Internet randos arguing about it here: https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-80426,00.html https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-80426,... As an outsider, highly advanced democracies appear to argue about very small things because most of the big things are done right. See also: Japan, Netherlands, Norway, Canada, Finland, etc.
- logicchains 3y ago
  >This highly authoritative article from World Economic Forum You mean highly biased? Switzerland's direct democracy is the antithesis of what the WEF stands for.
  - riffraff 3y ago
    WEF is based in Switzerland and their annual meeting is in the Swiss Alps. The financing of WEF is mostly big corps which are in large part headquartered in Switzerland, and is financed by the Swiss government directly. Swiss direct democracy is irrelevant to WEF.
- waffleiron 3y ago
  Their definition of democracy is quite arbitrary, I would argue that any country where women and minorities cannot vote isn’t a democracy, it is according to them.
  - scheme271 3y ago
    Sure but in that case, Switzerland wasn't a democracy until 1990 when women in the canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden finally got the right to vote in federal elections.
    - throwaway2037 3y ago
      Wiki says: Women in Switzerland gained the right to vote in federal elections after a referendum in February 1971.
      - scheme271 3y ago
        You're correct but women weren't allowed to vote on the canton level in some cantons until 1990. That's almost as bad: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/a-visit-to-appenzell-inner-rhodes-the-last-canton-to-grant-women-the-right-to-vote-in-switzerland/46328984 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/a-visit-to-appenzell-i...
scheme271 3y ago
I would disagree about the democracy part in Switzerland. Women weren't allowed to vote in federal elections until 1970 and it took until 1990 before the canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden allowed women to vote[1]. I don't think you can call yourself a democracy while banning women from voting. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerl...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- thworp 3y ago
  This is a valid criticism, but does not detract from the fact that Switzerland is pretty much a model democracy. Power is extremely decentralized, not just down to the Cantons, but the counties and then the cities/townships (translated to rough US equivalents) also have a huge degree of autonomy. For any law or political decision that affects a Swiss citizen, it is almost guaranteed that it can be overturned be plebiscite (or in local issues by just showing up at meetings). The late adoption of Women's suffrage is just a consequence of this system, which is biased towards inaction by design. On the plus side they have not had ideological extremists run their country, or had political violence on the level of some of their neighbors (Italy, Germany, France).
- chmod775 3y ago
  The ancient Greek, who invented the word "democracy" (δημοκρατία / dēmokratía), would disagree with your understanding of it. Aristoteles divided forms of government benefiting their rulers into tyrannies, oligarchies, and democracies as follows: one, few, many. (Analogous to these three you have monarchy, aristocracy, and polity, which are to the benefit of all). Many here does not mean everyone, otherwise you would have to let children and non-citizens vote as well. However in a later chapter he does break things down further and, for instance, establishes a spectrum ranging from polity to democracy. However the most extreme form of democracy on that spectrum would be unrecognizable to you: Every free citizen is the government, only slaves aren't. There are no laws. If that sounds like nonsense to you, it is. He was mostly firing shots at athen's democracy and not really be fair at all. Also do note that here democracy is the selfish variant of polity, and would thus is considered the "bad kind", inferior to even monarchy and aristocracy, but still preferable to oligarchy and tyranny.
caskstrength 3y ago
> Case in point: Patriot ACT. SOPA attempts. Asset Forfeiture. In contrast, see the most unruly place in Europe: Switzerland. I'm not so sure about that. Swiss public like all westerners seem to turn off their brains and vote for any authoritarian bullshit as soon as someone utter the word "terrorism" in 100km radius around them [0][1]: "Voters have endorsed a series of measures allowing police to crack down on militant extremists and apply preventive detention methods, giving Switzerland one of the strictest anti-terrorism legislations in Europe ." "The Swiss government has proposed new legislation aimed at preventing extremist violence and forcing people deemed a threat, including children aged 12 upwards, to be registered with the authorities. House arrest could also be applied to suspects as a last resort in some cases. The idea is to target people who have not yet committed a crime but who are considered to be a risk." "The experts are concerned that the draft law’s new definition of “terrorist activity” no longer requires the prospect of any crime at all. They fear it may target “legitimate activities of journalists, civil society and political activists”." [0]: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/controversial-anti-terrorism-law-set-for-voter-approval/46687348 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/controversial-anti-ter... [1]: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/un-experts-criticise-switzerland-over-anti-terrorism-law/46029192 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/un-experts-criticise-s... edit: spelling
- roenxi 3y ago
  Democracies can't really be condensed into one political moment; that is why they are so effective against dictatorships. Dictatorships have to make sense to one person. The usual pattern is authoritarians do something stupid, democracies do something stupid but also erratic, then time passes then the democracies reorganise to try something new and the dictatorship gets stuck in a rut. Eventually the democracy tries something that works to the amazement of all observers. The authoritarians are still pushing the same tired old plan of failure. Democracy doesn't have any secret sauce for making good decisions. Large groups of people are actually notoriously stupid. But they are much more responsive to situations where the government's official plan is obviously not working and the evidence is rolling in.
  - caskstrength 3y ago
AlchemistCamp 3y ago
> Yet Switzerland its the longest living democracy in the world… France conquered Switzerland after its revolution and the current Swiss state only goes back to 1848.

throwaway2037 3y ago

> Switzerland its the longest living democracy in the world I Googled that and found: This highly authoritative article from World Economic Forum that disagrees with you: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/countries-are-the-worlds-oldest-democracies/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/countries-are-the-wor... And, a bunch of Internet randos arguing about it here: https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-80426,00.html https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-80426,... As an outsider, highly advanced democracies appear to argue about very small things because most of the big things are done right. See also: Japan, Netherlands, Norway, Canada, Finland, etc.

logicchains 3y ago
>This highly authoritative article from World Economic Forum You mean highly biased? Switzerland's direct democracy is the antithesis of what the WEF stands for.
- riffraff 3y ago
  WEF is based in Switzerland and their annual meeting is in the Swiss Alps. The financing of WEF is mostly big corps which are in large part headquartered in Switzerland, and is financed by the Swiss government directly. Swiss direct democracy is irrelevant to WEF.
waffleiron 3y ago
Their definition of democracy is quite arbitrary, I would argue that any country where women and minorities cannot vote isn’t a democracy, it is according to them.
- scheme271 3y ago
  Sure but in that case, Switzerland wasn't a democracy until 1990 when women in the canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden finally got the right to vote in federal elections.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    Wiki says: Women in Switzerland gained the right to vote in federal elections after a referendum in February 1971.
    - scheme271 3y ago
      You're correct but women weren't allowed to vote on the canton level in some cantons until 1990. That's almost as bad: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/a-visit-to-appenzell-inner-rhodes-the-last-canton-to-grant-women-the-right-to-vote-in-switzerland/46328984 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/a-visit-to-appenzell-i...

scheme271 3y ago

I would disagree about the democracy part in Switzerland. Women weren't allowed to vote in federal elections until 1970 and it took until 1990 before the canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden allowed women to vote[1]. I don't think you can call yourself a democracy while banning women from voting. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerl...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
thworp 3y ago
This is a valid criticism, but does not detract from the fact that Switzerland is pretty much a model democracy. Power is extremely decentralized, not just down to the Cantons, but the counties and then the cities/townships (translated to rough US equivalents) also have a huge degree of autonomy. For any law or political decision that affects a Swiss citizen, it is almost guaranteed that it can be overturned be plebiscite (or in local issues by just showing up at meetings). The late adoption of Women's suffrage is just a consequence of this system, which is biased towards inaction by design. On the plus side they have not had ideological extremists run their country, or had political violence on the level of some of their neighbors (Italy, Germany, France).
chmod775 3y ago
The ancient Greek, who invented the word "democracy" (δημοκρατία / dēmokratía), would disagree with your understanding of it. Aristoteles divided forms of government benefiting their rulers into tyrannies, oligarchies, and democracies as follows: one, few, many. (Analogous to these three you have monarchy, aristocracy, and polity, which are to the benefit of all). Many here does not mean everyone, otherwise you would have to let children and non-citizens vote as well. However in a later chapter he does break things down further and, for instance, establishes a spectrum ranging from polity to democracy. However the most extreme form of democracy on that spectrum would be unrecognizable to you: Every free citizen is the government, only slaves aren't. There are no laws. If that sounds like nonsense to you, it is. He was mostly firing shots at athen's democracy and not really be fair at all. Also do note that here democracy is the selfish variant of polity, and would thus is considered the "bad kind", inferior to even monarchy and aristocracy, but still preferable to oligarchy and tyranny.

caskstrength 3y ago

> Case in point: Patriot ACT. SOPA attempts. Asset Forfeiture. In contrast, see the most unruly place in Europe: Switzerland. I'm not so sure about that. Swiss public like all westerners seem to turn off their brains and vote for any authoritarian bullshit as soon as someone utter the word "terrorism" in 100km radius around them [0][1]: "Voters have endorsed a series of measures allowing police to crack down on militant extremists and apply preventive detention methods, giving Switzerland one of the strictest anti-terrorism legislations in Europe ." "The Swiss government has proposed new legislation aimed at preventing extremist violence and forcing people deemed a threat, including children aged 12 upwards, to be registered with the authorities. House arrest could also be applied to suspects as a last resort in some cases. The idea is to target people who have not yet committed a crime but who are considered to be a risk." "The experts are concerned that the draft law’s new definition of “terrorist activity” no longer requires the prospect of any crime at all. They fear it may target “legitimate activities of journalists, civil society and political activists”." [0]: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/controversial-anti-terrorism-law-set-for-voter-approval/46687348 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/controversial-anti-ter... [1]: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/un-experts-criticise-switzerland-over-anti-terrorism-law/46029192 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/un-experts-criticise-s... edit: spelling

roenxi 3y ago
Democracies can't really be condensed into one political moment; that is why they are so effective against dictatorships. Dictatorships have to make sense to one person. The usual pattern is authoritarians do something stupid, democracies do something stupid but also erratic, then time passes then the democracies reorganise to try something new and the dictatorship gets stuck in a rut. Eventually the democracy tries something that works to the amazement of all observers. The authoritarians are still pushing the same tired old plan of failure. Democracy doesn't have any secret sauce for making good decisions. Large groups of people are actually notoriously stupid. But they are much more responsive to situations where the government's official plan is obviously not working and the evidence is rolling in.
- caskstrength 3y ago

AlchemistCamp 3y ago

> Yet Switzerland its the longest living democracy in the world… France conquered Switzerland after its revolution and the current Swiss state only goes back to 1848.