4 ms·

I'm in the indie games business and I can say they overpaid for everything. 6K for music should be 1-2k at most! Poster Art - What's wrong with those awesome

I'm in the indie games business and I can say they overpaid for everything. 6K for music should be 1-2k at most! Poster Art - What's wrong with those awesome sprites that Kotaku used. Should be 0. IPads? More that one? PAX East? - That's a holiday not a legitimate business expense. This is why they say so many people don't make their money back in the App Store any more. You can't spend indie money like you work for a AAA studio.

tptacek 15y ago
Not to disagree (I don't know enough about the industry to disagree) but they got the iPads to show the game teaser at PAX.
jay_kyburz 15y ago
Actually, now that I read my own comment I realize it makes me sound like a cheap and grumpy old man. Perhaps they want to make a big budget game with really great music from their favorite artist, really awesome posters, and I know of course that each dev should have an iPad. You might even need all the different kinds.
InclinedPlane 15y ago
"PAX East? - That's a holiday not a legitimate business expense." For a game developer? No, it's a fantastic way to raise the profile of your game. You get the most avid gamers interested in your game (who will spread the word if they like the game) and you get press coverage too. For an exhibitor PAX isn't a 3 day vacation, it's 5 or 6 days of working 12+ hours days, most of them staying chained to their booth in their expo hall.
- jay_kyburz 15y ago
  Nar, a game as great looking as theirs would get the press anyhow. The press are dying for more interesting games to write about. You raise another good point though, not only is it 3k, but its 5-6 days at 12+ hours. A whole week of dev time lost to the event. Events are great fun, but if you don't have money you don't know what to do with, I don't think they are a very good investment. Not much bang for the buck I don't think.
  - corin_ 15y ago
    I've been in the fairly unique situation of seeing the results a wide range of companies in the extended games industry (from top games publishers to indies to gaming hardware... etc.) got from exhibiting their products and I couldn't disagree more about it being a good investment.
    - jay_kyburz 15y ago
      Hey Corin, I'd love to hear more about why you think so. I'm always trying to work out how to best spend my marketing money (and energy). Do you have any metrics you can share about how an appearance at a show relate to final game sales? Or even press coverage? For example, if they were to spend that money on banner advertising they could generate say 6-10k clicks through to their website.
      - corin_ 15y ago
        Press coverage - not metrics, but I've seen an awful lot of stories come out of events, and most importantly an awful lot of journalists meeting exhibitors, from bloggers to mainstream websites or newspapers. Obviously this doesn't guarantee coverage, but it puts the ball in your hands, once you're stood talking to a journalist while standing over your product it's time to knock it out of the park. I don't really have any customer data I can share with you, the sort of selling points generally used are more vague - such as "The average spend per visitor at last year's event on products sourced at the show was £767, a total audience spend of £79.8m" (taken from the sales pitch of a 2012 event). The overall focus of selling - though I'm not actually in sales so this isn't my direct area - is about the size of the audience, and what sort of demographic they are. I don't know if events are a good use of your money when it's as tight as that, i.e. if you can chose between $3k on an event or $3k on a PR company, but only one, as I can't think of any exhibitor I've ever had that paid that little, or that was small enough not to have marketing budget around it. The single biggest argument I can give, I think, is that if you go to PAX you're going to get more people looking at your game than you'd get clicks for $3k online - and when it comes down to it, are you going to sell your game better by having somebody look at your website, or stand in front of you try out your game? Incidentally, what adverts are giving you that click-rate, and do you have any calculated CPA figures? edit: I just want to note that like I said above, my experience comes more from big budget companies like big studio publishers rather than indies, so I can't necessarily say events are or aren't a great idea for people like you, just that they do offer bang for buck.
- vibrunazo 15y ago
  But it's a lot of money tho. If your goal is marketing, then isn't it a more efficient cost per user acquisition to just buy adwords or whatever online ads instead? $3k is a lot of ad impressions.
  - patio11 15y ago
    It's virtually impossible to make AdWords work for their business model, and if it were not impossible it would require someone intelligent to implement, and unlike game developers SEM specialists expect to get paid on a regular basis. This is largely a function of the unit economics of indie games being terrible compared to e.g. the unit economics of a free to play MMORPG.
- gavanwoolery 15y ago
  It's hard to make an impression when you have no money left to make a game. Make the game first, and if its good it will market itself. If you have funds left over after the game is finished, THEN you can spend them on extras.
EricDeb 15y ago
Agreed. It's not that these weren't legitimate business expenses but if you are trying to start a company on a shoe-string budget you should really spend considerable time trying to get the best deal possible and limit all expenses to the bare minimum.
phaus 15y ago
"IPads? More than one?" A better question might be, "iPads? Why are these people soliciting money from people to make an iPad game when they don't have any experience developing for the iPad?"
- sukuriant 15y ago
  Theirs broke? They've done iPhone development?
marquis 15y ago
>6K for music should be 1-2k at most! For good music? For music that you don't want to turn off the second time you play it? Don't undervalue good production values.
- jaems33 15y ago
  Seriously. Oh development can be 5k and above but something also important like music? Pssh, screw that...
  - marquis 15y ago
    The developers still get to sell their product right? This is a Kickstarter - they get to keep making a profit. If they want to bootstrap then sure, use the most cost effective method but if someone has given you $20k to get a beautiful game made, make that beautiful game. I love good music in my media experiences and I'll pay for those games that have that.

tptacek 15y ago

Not to disagree (I don't know enough about the industry to disagree) but they got the iPads to show the game teaser at PAX.

jay_kyburz 15y ago

Actually, now that I read my own comment I realize it makes me sound like a cheap and grumpy old man. Perhaps they want to make a big budget game with really great music from their favorite artist, really awesome posters, and I know of course that each dev should have an iPad. You might even need all the different kinds.

InclinedPlane 15y ago

"PAX East? - That's a holiday not a legitimate business expense." For a game developer? No, it's a fantastic way to raise the profile of your game. You get the most avid gamers interested in your game (who will spread the word if they like the game) and you get press coverage too. For an exhibitor PAX isn't a 3 day vacation, it's 5 or 6 days of working 12+ hours days, most of them staying chained to their booth in their expo hall.

jay_kyburz 15y ago
Nar, a game as great looking as theirs would get the press anyhow. The press are dying for more interesting games to write about. You raise another good point though, not only is it 3k, but its 5-6 days at 12+ hours. A whole week of dev time lost to the event. Events are great fun, but if you don't have money you don't know what to do with, I don't think they are a very good investment. Not much bang for the buck I don't think.
- corin_ 15y ago
  I've been in the fairly unique situation of seeing the results a wide range of companies in the extended games industry (from top games publishers to indies to gaming hardware... etc.) got from exhibiting their products and I couldn't disagree more about it being a good investment.
  - jay_kyburz 15y ago
    Hey Corin, I'd love to hear more about why you think so. I'm always trying to work out how to best spend my marketing money (and energy). Do you have any metrics you can share about how an appearance at a show relate to final game sales? Or even press coverage? For example, if they were to spend that money on banner advertising they could generate say 6-10k clicks through to their website.
    - corin_ 15y ago
      Press coverage - not metrics, but I've seen an awful lot of stories come out of events, and most importantly an awful lot of journalists meeting exhibitors, from bloggers to mainstream websites or newspapers. Obviously this doesn't guarantee coverage, but it puts the ball in your hands, once you're stood talking to a journalist while standing over your product it's time to knock it out of the park. I don't really have any customer data I can share with you, the sort of selling points generally used are more vague - such as "The average spend per visitor at last year's event on products sourced at the show was £767, a total audience spend of £79.8m" (taken from the sales pitch of a 2012 event). The overall focus of selling - though I'm not actually in sales so this isn't my direct area - is about the size of the audience, and what sort of demographic they are. I don't know if events are a good use of your money when it's as tight as that, i.e. if you can chose between $3k on an event or $3k on a PR company, but only one, as I can't think of any exhibitor I've ever had that paid that little, or that was small enough not to have marketing budget around it. The single biggest argument I can give, I think, is that if you go to PAX you're going to get more people looking at your game than you'd get clicks for $3k online - and when it comes down to it, are you going to sell your game better by having somebody look at your website, or stand in front of you try out your game? Incidentally, what adverts are giving you that click-rate, and do you have any calculated CPA figures? edit: I just want to note that like I said above, my experience comes more from big budget companies like big studio publishers rather than indies, so I can't necessarily say events are or aren't a great idea for people like you, just that they do offer bang for buck.
vibrunazo 15y ago
But it's a lot of money tho. If your goal is marketing, then isn't it a more efficient cost per user acquisition to just buy adwords or whatever online ads instead? $3k is a lot of ad impressions.
- patio11 15y ago
  It's virtually impossible to make AdWords work for their business model, and if it were not impossible it would require someone intelligent to implement, and unlike game developers SEM specialists expect to get paid on a regular basis. This is largely a function of the unit economics of indie games being terrible compared to e.g. the unit economics of a free to play MMORPG.
gavanwoolery 15y ago
It's hard to make an impression when you have no money left to make a game. Make the game first, and if its good it will market itself. If you have funds left over after the game is finished, THEN you can spend them on extras.

EricDeb 15y ago

Agreed. It's not that these weren't legitimate business expenses but if you are trying to start a company on a shoe-string budget you should really spend considerable time trying to get the best deal possible and limit all expenses to the bare minimum.

phaus 15y ago

"IPads? More than one?" A better question might be, "iPads? Why are these people soliciting money from people to make an iPad game when they don't have any experience developing for the iPad?"

sukuriant 15y ago
Theirs broke? They've done iPhone development?

marquis 15y ago

>6K for music should be 1-2k at most! For good music? For music that you don't want to turn off the second time you play it? Don't undervalue good production values.

jaems33 15y ago
Seriously. Oh development can be 5k and above but something also important like music? Pssh, screw that...
- marquis 15y ago
  The developers still get to sell their product right? This is a Kickstarter - they get to keep making a profit. If they want to bootstrap then sure, use the most cost effective method but if someone has given you $20k to get a beautiful game made, make that beautiful game. I love good music in my media experiences and I'll pay for those games that have that.