6 ms·

In many countries, if you're eg. an engineer, and you fuck things up, you can become personally responsible for whatever damages happened due to your negligence

In many countries, if you're eg. an engineer, and you fuck things up, you can become personally responsible for whatever damages happened due to your negligence. The company has its own responsibilities, but you, as an engineer carry some personal responsibility too. Same for eg. doctors... yes, hospital can get sued, but if you, a doctor, a person, fucked up, you personally can get sued, get into trouble, lose your licence etc. Same for truck drivers... drive too fast, kill someone, drive drunk, play flappy bird while driving... you personally responsible. Pilots, ship captains too. etc. Why the hell are all the public workers exempt from that? Cops, government workers, inspectors, etc.... in the best case possible, taxpayers pay for the damages and that's it. Why?! Someone wanted this subpoeana, his job is to know if s/he can actually request it, s/he signed his/her name on the paper... and then.. nothing?

spencerflem 3y ago
if you're asking earnestly, one of the biggest reasons is that the would-be prosecutor relies on the cooperation of the police department to function. This article covers that and some more: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-for-police-officers-to-face-legal-consequences-for-misconduct/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-f...
- reaperman 3y ago
  In some countries it’s possible for civilian lawyers to press criminal charges specifically for situations like this. There’s some gatekeeping by the courts and whatnot to approve the case but it’s pretty reasonable. Also allows victims to “press charges” when the police mysteriously refuse to. Burden of proof remains the same as for a state-appointed prosecutor. And judges still get similar leeway in sentencing.
  - spencerflem 3y ago
    Oh totally, theres lots of ways it could be improved. Unfortunately, our courts are also in their pocket for various reasons, and invented whole cloth the concept of qualified immunity. So getting the case to the courts is no guarantee either. Still would be better of course. I find it so sad, how much of the country was united on this for months, and how little has actually happened in response.
- Teever 3y ago
  So why not make a special prosecutor who only deals with police cases? The solution seems too simple. That makes me think that the underlying thing causing this issue to plague American society isn't what you suggest.
  - spencerflem 3y ago
    ok, maybe one of the biggest wasn't hedged enough. but it is still an important reason imo. There are many more of course: - Police can sabotage the re-elections of politicians that oppose them, by doing their job worse and increasing the rate of crime. - Courts tend to favor the police, inventing such concepts as qualified immunity - An unfortunately large percent of the country is happy for the police to trample people as long as it's the people they don't like - And more, which the article gets into some of. I'm not a huge 538 fan but its pretty decent
rileymat2 3y ago
Isn’t there something special about the arrangement of doctors not being employed by the hospital that might explain some of the individual suits?
ponector 3y ago
For the doctors, it is really hard to loose a license. Even then, a doctor can move to another state and continue to run practice.
- alsetmusic 3y ago
  Last Week Tonight with John Oliver just covered this topic on Sunday.
Loughla 3y ago
I work in the public sector, local government. I'm personally liable for mistakes at my job. I carry insurance for it.
alistairSH 3y ago
“Qualified immunity” is what you’re looking for. The original justification was to protect government officials (primarily law enforcement) from excessive, frivolous lawsuits. Except the courts have since interpreted QI in such a way that there’s a Catch-22 scenario. Plaintiff needs to establish violation of a clearly established constitutional precedent to have standing, but since QI was only introduced in the 1960s, there’s very little case law proving that precedence. While I understand the initial thought behind QI, it does seem the bar to holding law enforcement accountable is way too high. Time to adjust the laws (which requires a functional Congress, which we don’t have).
- alsetmusic 3y ago
  > Time to adjust the laws (which requires a functional Congress, which we don’t have). This is the thing that frustrates me the most about the current state of USA politics. The inability to functionally govern and reach bi-partisan support for a lot of meaningful issues renders us helpless to improve bad systems. Meanwhile, corporations continue to dilute the value of their products and services or jack up the price beyond the rate of inflation and no real regulation seems possible.
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    Remember, it is perfectly valid to be equally aware of how the parties are different, but being more frustrated by the ways they are the same Don’t let partisans gaslight you over their desperate struggles for the ring of power yes, the sides are different, there are ways they are the same
    - ajross 3y ago
      > Remember, it is perfectly valid to be equally aware of how the parties are different, but being more frustrated by the ways they are the same That's an easy genericism. In fact this particular issue under discussion is quite asymmetric. It's routine for a republican congress to block legislation that would otherwise pass (c.f. current bills for border security and Ukraine aid, our now-quarterly government shutdown jamboree, etc...). The reverse really is not true. I can't think of a notable bipartisan bill in the last decade blocked by a democratically-controlled government organ. Can you? It's perfectly valid to have complaints about both parties, but not to invent frustrations about how they are the same.
gosub100 3y ago
Because in all those professions, there is enough time to follow a process, or (in the case of pilots) their survival is linked to the survival of everyone else. In a typical police apprehension, there may be a second or less to draw your weapon and fire. Nobody would take the job if they had to be perfect or lose their freedom or life savings. Speaking of life savings, most of the criminals they apprehend have nothing to lose. So maybe you're on to something. Let's hire police who are currently incarcerated and have no assets, family or wealth to lose. Then they can be subject to the draconian measures of your fantasy and worst case is they got a few months of freedom. Smart guy you are:)
- Duwensatzaj 3y ago
  Then why do cops and government officials get QI in non-emergency situations?
- redeeman 3y ago
  it is possible to distinquish between situations in a court
godelski 3y ago
> In many countries Those countries include the US btw. The rules are basically the same for all of them, that they have to have not just made a mistake, but made an unreasonable mistake. It is often hard to lose a license this way as you need to balance just shit happening, things going wrong when you made the right (or a reasonable) choice vs when you made a gross mistake. And of course, the conditions are based on decisions made a priori, not post hoc. Because post hoc is a dangerous game to play given so much more clarity. e.g. for Doctors: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628513/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628513/ Of course, this doesn't say anything about cops or the state of affairs here in the US. What surprises me more is that despite what many think, there is quite a lot of distrust for the police. What someone needs to tell me is how most Americans have "very little" to no confidence in Congress and they keep getting elected. Its pretty universally agreed that no one wants a geriatric in the White House yet here we are. How we distrust all our institutions and yet continue to prop them up. At this point I'm no longer mad at them. I mad at us. We are being enablers. Even down to local elections I hear so much uproar and low polling rates and yet watch these officials get reelected. I don't think it is foul play because I hear people talk about how they hold their nose while voting. City, county, state, or federal, it is all the same. Clearly we've made our own bed, but we just don't want to lie in it. If you're going to half ass your job you can't complain about how shitty everything is. Before you go blaming others, take a long look in the mirror. I'm sure __you__ are better than that, just the way __you__ can't be manipulated by propaganda and how __you__ can't be tricked by scams. Clearly, we've been played. Clearly we're still being played. So stop blaming your neighbor or pointing to others until you look in the mirror. We all need to do it if we're going to get our shit together. Because we're all in this together, for better or worse. But what I fear most is that because we'd rather stroke our egos to claim our own team is best we won't ever realize that it is this action that creates the radicals. It is my fear that we won't solve problems before they are problems. That we believe so much in "don't fix what ain't broke" that we won't ever perform basic maintenance. It is far more expensive to fix what is broken than to fix what isn't. My fear is we won't fix things until the streets run red. And that's my biggest fear, that we, the people, won't realize that the blood isn't just on the hands of the elites, but that it is on ours too. We are happy to play the mafia boss who has fully convinced himself and matter-of-factly asks "do you see blood on my hands?" [0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/394283/confidence-institutions-down-average-new-low.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/394283/confidence-institutions-...
otherme123 3y ago
Not all public workers are exempt. We have public health workers here, and there has been cases of people going to jail for looking at medical records without medical justification. This is a nurse that is going 3 years to jail and a 4,000€ fine for checking the records of her ex: https://theobjective.com/espana/tribunales/2023-07-31/condenada-prision-historial-medico/ https://theobjective.com/espana/tribunales/2023-07-31/conden... The immunity doesn't reach all public workers. Only politicians and law enforcers
redeeman 3y ago
> Why the hell are all the public workers exempt from that? Cops, government workers, inspectors, etc.... in the best case possible, taxpayers pay for the damages and that's it. Why?! Someone wanted this subpoeana, his job is to know if s/he can actually request it, s/he signed his/her name on the paper... and then.. nothing? Because the regime wants their agents to blindly obey orders they push down, or foster to happen at lower levels. If this could suddenly come back and cause actual consequences for some of the regime henchmen, it could be that they might consider not obeying. by definition, the incentives that exists in a state is not to do what is best for the people its supposed to serve. The bigger and wider a state becomes, the more perverse incentives exists, and since a regime can create its own laws and regulations, it will do so to protect itself first and foremost

spencerflem 3y ago

if you're asking earnestly, one of the biggest reasons is that the would-be prosecutor relies on the cooperation of the police department to function. This article covers that and some more: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-for-police-officers-to-face-legal-consequences-for-misconduct/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-f...

reaperman 3y ago
In some countries it’s possible for civilian lawyers to press criminal charges specifically for situations like this. There’s some gatekeeping by the courts and whatnot to approve the case but it’s pretty reasonable. Also allows victims to “press charges” when the police mysteriously refuse to. Burden of proof remains the same as for a state-appointed prosecutor. And judges still get similar leeway in sentencing.
- spencerflem 3y ago
  Oh totally, theres lots of ways it could be improved. Unfortunately, our courts are also in their pocket for various reasons, and invented whole cloth the concept of qualified immunity. So getting the case to the courts is no guarantee either. Still would be better of course. I find it so sad, how much of the country was united on this for months, and how little has actually happened in response.
Teever 3y ago
So why not make a special prosecutor who only deals with police cases? The solution seems too simple. That makes me think that the underlying thing causing this issue to plague American society isn't what you suggest.
- spencerflem 3y ago
  ok, maybe one of the biggest wasn't hedged enough. but it is still an important reason imo. There are many more of course: - Police can sabotage the re-elections of politicians that oppose them, by doing their job worse and increasing the rate of crime. - Courts tend to favor the police, inventing such concepts as qualified immunity - An unfortunately large percent of the country is happy for the police to trample people as long as it's the people they don't like - And more, which the article gets into some of. I'm not a huge 538 fan but its pretty decent

rileymat2 3y ago

Isn’t there something special about the arrangement of doctors not being employed by the hospital that might explain some of the individual suits?

ponector 3y ago

For the doctors, it is really hard to loose a license. Even then, a doctor can move to another state and continue to run practice.

alsetmusic 3y ago
Last Week Tonight with John Oliver just covered this topic on Sunday.

Loughla 3y ago

I work in the public sector, local government. I'm personally liable for mistakes at my job. I carry insurance for it.

alistairSH 3y ago

“Qualified immunity” is what you’re looking for. The original justification was to protect government officials (primarily law enforcement) from excessive, frivolous lawsuits. Except the courts have since interpreted QI in such a way that there’s a Catch-22 scenario. Plaintiff needs to establish violation of a clearly established constitutional precedent to have standing, but since QI was only introduced in the 1960s, there’s very little case law proving that precedence. While I understand the initial thought behind QI, it does seem the bar to holding law enforcement accountable is way too high. Time to adjust the laws (which requires a functional Congress, which we don’t have).

alsetmusic 3y ago
> Time to adjust the laws (which requires a functional Congress, which we don’t have). This is the thing that frustrates me the most about the current state of USA politics. The inability to functionally govern and reach bi-partisan support for a lot of meaningful issues renders us helpless to improve bad systems. Meanwhile, corporations continue to dilute the value of their products and services or jack up the price beyond the rate of inflation and no real regulation seems possible.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  Remember, it is perfectly valid to be equally aware of how the parties are different, but being more frustrated by the ways they are the same Don’t let partisans gaslight you over their desperate struggles for the ring of power yes, the sides are different, there are ways they are the same
  - ajross 3y ago
    > Remember, it is perfectly valid to be equally aware of how the parties are different, but being more frustrated by the ways they are the same That's an easy genericism. In fact this particular issue under discussion is quite asymmetric. It's routine for a republican congress to block legislation that would otherwise pass (c.f. current bills for border security and Ukraine aid, our now-quarterly government shutdown jamboree, etc...). The reverse really is not true. I can't think of a notable bipartisan bill in the last decade blocked by a democratically-controlled government organ. Can you? It's perfectly valid to have complaints about both parties, but not to invent frustrations about how they are the same.

gosub100 3y ago

Because in all those professions, there is enough time to follow a process, or (in the case of pilots) their survival is linked to the survival of everyone else. In a typical police apprehension, there may be a second or less to draw your weapon and fire. Nobody would take the job if they had to be perfect or lose their freedom or life savings. Speaking of life savings, most of the criminals they apprehend have nothing to lose. So maybe you're on to something. Let's hire police who are currently incarcerated and have no assets, family or wealth to lose. Then they can be subject to the draconian measures of your fantasy and worst case is they got a few months of freedom. Smart guy you are:)

Duwensatzaj 3y ago
Then why do cops and government officials get QI in non-emergency situations?
redeeman 3y ago
it is possible to distinquish between situations in a court

godelski 3y ago

> In many countries Those countries include the US btw. The rules are basically the same for all of them, that they have to have not just made a mistake, but made an unreasonable mistake. It is often hard to lose a license this way as you need to balance just shit happening, things going wrong when you made the right (or a reasonable) choice vs when you made a gross mistake. And of course, the conditions are based on decisions made a priori, not post hoc. Because post hoc is a dangerous game to play given so much more clarity. e.g. for Doctors: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628513/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628513/ Of course, this doesn't say anything about cops or the state of affairs here in the US. What surprises me more is that despite what many think, there is quite a lot of distrust for the police. What someone needs to tell me is how most Americans have "very little" to no confidence in Congress and they keep getting elected. Its pretty universally agreed that no one wants a geriatric in the White House yet here we are. How we distrust all our institutions and yet continue to prop them up. At this point I'm no longer mad at them. I mad at us. We are being enablers. Even down to local elections I hear so much uproar and low polling rates and yet watch these officials get reelected. I don't think it is foul play because I hear people talk about how they hold their nose while voting. City, county, state, or federal, it is all the same. Clearly we've made our own bed, but we just don't want to lie in it. If you're going to half ass your job you can't complain about how shitty everything is. Before you go blaming others, take a long look in the mirror. I'm sure __you__ are better than that, just the way __you__ can't be manipulated by propaganda and how __you__ can't be tricked by scams. Clearly, we've been played. Clearly we're still being played. So stop blaming your neighbor or pointing to others until you look in the mirror. We all need to do it if we're going to get our shit together. Because we're all in this together, for better or worse. But what I fear most is that because we'd rather stroke our egos to claim our own team is best we won't ever realize that it is this action that creates the radicals. It is my fear that we won't solve problems before they are problems. That we believe so much in "don't fix what ain't broke" that we won't ever perform basic maintenance. It is far more expensive to fix what is broken than to fix what isn't. My fear is we won't fix things until the streets run red. And that's my biggest fear, that we, the people, won't realize that the blood isn't just on the hands of the elites, but that it is on ours too. We are happy to play the mafia boss who has fully convinced himself and matter-of-factly asks "do you see blood on my hands?" [0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/394283/confidence-institutions-down-average-new-low.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/394283/confidence-institutions-...

otherme123 3y ago

Not all public workers are exempt. We have public health workers here, and there has been cases of people going to jail for looking at medical records without medical justification. This is a nurse that is going 3 years to jail and a 4,000€ fine for checking the records of her ex: https://theobjective.com/espana/tribunales/2023-07-31/condenada-prision-historial-medico/ https://theobjective.com/espana/tribunales/2023-07-31/conden... The immunity doesn't reach all public workers. Only politicians and law enforcers

redeeman 3y ago

> Why the hell are all the public workers exempt from that? Cops, government workers, inspectors, etc.... in the best case possible, taxpayers pay for the damages and that's it. Why?! Someone wanted this subpoeana, his job is to know if s/he can actually request it, s/he signed his/her name on the paper... and then.. nothing? Because the regime wants their agents to blindly obey orders they push down, or foster to happen at lower levels. If this could suddenly come back and cause actual consequences for some of the regime henchmen, it could be that they might consider not obeying. by definition, the incentives that exists in a state is not to do what is best for the people its supposed to serve. The bigger and wider a state becomes, the more perverse incentives exists, and since a regime can create its own laws and regulations, it will do so to protect itself first and foremost