8 ms·

The problem of "brake dust" on human health and air quality has been known for a long time (https://phys.org/news/2020-01-air-pollution-effects-immune-cells.htm

The problem of "brake dust" on human health and air quality has been known for a long time (https://phys.org/news/2020-01-air-pollution-effects-immune-cells.html https://phys.org/news/2020-01-air-pollution-effects-immune-c...) before that there were also issues with asbestos in brakes, but thankfully those haven't been used since the 90s as far as I know. This is the first I'm hearing about electrically charged particles though. The bottom line is that proximity to traffic is horrible for your health and your air quality. Electric cars can help with some of the problems but don't solve all of them. The people with the least amount of money end up having to move to apartments near highways and so they often suffer the worst impacts, but I've seen very nice and expensive apartments and houses very close to (or directly on) busy streets. Noise is usually the obvious and immediate consideration, and I doubt many people are aware of the risks they expose themselves and their families to just by opening a window in the summer.

jasonfarnon 3y ago
If you looked nationally at wealth vs proximity to traffic, I would wager the "people with the least amount of money" are not the closest to traffic; are you suggesting otherwise? If only because of all the wealth that has come to cities in the last 20-25 yrs. Within that already wealthy urban demo I would agree, yes, the poorer wealthy are nearer to urban highways and thoroughfare than the wealthier wealthy.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6203a8.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6203a8.htm "In the United States, it is widely accepted that economically disadvantaged and minority populations share a disproportionate burden of air pollution exposure and risk (26,27). A growing body of evidence demonstrates that minority populations and persons of lower socioeconomic status experience higher residential exposure to traffic and traffic-related air pollution than nonminorities and persons of higher socioeconomic status (5,28–31). Two recent studies have confirmed that these racial/ethnic and socioeconomic disparities also exist on a national scale (32,33)."
  - jasonfarnon 3y ago
    It's not surprising that minorities would be exposed to more traffic given the proportion that live in urban areas, but that doesn't rule out that the poorest in the country (minorities and whites) are not the most exposed. I guess my basic question is, are the poorest people still living in city centers? In my city the central, densest areas became some of the wealthiest, the quieter outlying areas the poorest.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      > …that doesn't rule out that the poorest in the country (minorities and whites) are not the most exposed. Setting aside race, to me it seems like "economically disadvantaged populations share a disproportionate burden of traffic-related air pollution exposure" makes this pretty clear. <shrug>
      - mattgrice 3y ago
        It's not 1950, everyone on this site has a 1+ GFLOP machine so there's no need to squash a bunch of independent variables down to one dimension or as you call it "set aside race." Unless you're not a hacker, that is. Even into the 1960s wealthy black people were prevented from buying and living in the 'good' parts of even northern US cities.
        porkbeer 3y ago
        Care to enlighten us as to the second paragraph? I only found some misc stuff, nothing appearing to be systemic or enshrined in law. In fact I see laws against such things being enforced more than lamented in searches.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      Why do you assume that fine particulate is at the highest in city centers? It's often higher than average, but the highest is frequently outside of the city center, where highways have been constructed through pre-existing, poorer neighborhoods. The South Bronx is the famous example of this[1]. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/04/new-york-south-bronx-minorities-pollution-inequity https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/04/new-york-sou...
- hamandcheese 3y ago
  For a very concrete example of this, within a city, see I-580 vs I-880 in Oakland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_580_(California)#Truck_ban_through_Oakland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_580_(California)#Tr...
ipqk 3y ago
And EVs make some problems worse, such as tire dust because they're heavier than an equivalent ICE car.
- rjbwork 3y ago
  Yep. Pretty much any kind of wear and tear part that is on an EV wears worse compared to a similarly powerful ICE. It's probably a wash or better because they don't use petroleum products for propulsion, but it is definitely a thing that needs to be considered. EV's are not some kind of panacea.
  - Johnny555 3y ago
    Except brakes, since they are rarely used due to regenerative braking. Tires, on the other hand, do wear faster than a lighter ICE car. My EV has almost 30,000 miles now and will need tires soon, but other than washer fluid, it has had no other consumables or wear items replaced. Though to be fair, the tires on my previous ICE vehicle only lasted about 30,000 miles before they needed to be replaced, OEM car tires are often not long lasting. Brake fluid is due to be flushed next year, but not due to use of the brakes, just due to time.
    - Moto7451 3y ago
      Tire life also depends on where you live. In Atlanta, GA, I specifically haven’t made it more than 20K miles on a set of tires be it wear or road hazard. The issue with nails here is so bad there’s a guy on a bike picking them up with magnets. https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/atlanta-magnet-man-alex-benigno-bicycle https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/atlanta-magnet-man-alex-ben... That 20K set of tires had a slow leak from a nail that was patched incompletely. On the new set I had to replace two using the hazard insurance I purchased after three months and two thousand miles. I expect to use the insurance again. I now have an EV with sport summer tires. They’re at 5K miles and have a screw embedded in one tire since about 400 miles. That tire was deemed to be safe and best left alone as it’s presumed to be running through a rubber block only. I’m just running it until it goes flat assuming it doesn’t manage to survive its whole expected life span. Realistically I’ll end up running something else over this spring once construction gets into full swing.
savrajsingh 3y ago
what about the NYC subway / PATH train? The air quality there is pretty bad -- the trains use standard brakes.
- autoexec 3y ago
  I wouldn't spend more time on underground transportation systems than I had to. https://nypost.com/2023/05/13/subway-has-alarmingly-high-pollution-levels-study-finds/ https://nypost.com/2023/05/13/subway-has-alarmingly-high-pol...
onion2k 3y ago
Electric cars can help with some of the problems but don't solve all of them. In the case of brake dust specifically, presumably electric cars are worse because they're quite a bit heavier than ICE cars.
- carlmr 3y ago
  What you're saying is completely true for tire particulates, but if you drive an electric car normally you're almost never engaging the brakes. Since almost all normal amount of braking is in the envelope of where your regeneration braking can take all of the power. This counts even for hybrids though. A friend of mine had to replace his brakes after over 10 years and 180,000km on his Prius for the first time. Not because the brake pads were used up, but because the brake rotors started to rust too much from not being used. Of course if you're one of those people that floor it and hard brake at every stop light, this doesn't work, but for most cars it works really well.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - belorn 3y ago
    ICE cars can use engine braking, and here in Sweden it get focused as part of the driving license and associated training. I recall even getting the recommendation to "exercise" the breaks once in a while in order to assert that they actually do work when you needed, since breaks that don't get used enough can get rust buildup.
    - carlmr 3y ago
      Of course, this is also part of driver training in Germany. But the engine braking on EVs makes brakes only necessary for emergency braking if you're not driving like a maniac. With ICE engines you still need the brakes a lot more. Especially downhill.
- davely 3y ago
  I don’t think this is a 1:1 comparison though. Electric cars can utilize regenerative braking, which can significantly slow them down before needing to use friction from brake pads in order to stop.
highwaylights 3y ago
> before that there were also issues with asbestos in brakes, but thankfully those haven't been used since the 90s as far as I know I’d be careful with assuming that. A lot of consumables are imported directly from China, and the cost of car maintenance can be eye-watering, so it’s exactly the type of part I’d expect to be procured as cheaply as possible. People care about the brand of tyres on their car, I don’t even know of any brake pad brands.
- riffraff 3y ago
  DBrembo or AP Racing are somewhat well known brake manufacturers, but only matter for sport cars/motorbikes. OTOH I don't think most people care about tires either.
hacker_88 3y ago
EV use of Magnetic Braking reduce brake wear by alot . With One pedal driving in city not using brakes at all
- yreg 3y ago
  I almost never use breaks. It is a game for me, so I'm conscious of any time I have to use them. On the other hand, EVs unfortunately pollute more with tire particles (thanks to both higher torque - especially from 0 - and higher average mass).
  - helsinkiandrew 3y ago
    > EVs unfortunately pollute more with tire particles (thanks to both higher torque - especially from 0 - and higher average mass). I wonder how much the higher torque of EVs is a real issue? Although they have the potential to do more aggressive acceleration and produce more tyre pollution, the Teslas I see leaving traffic stops seem to be accelerating the same as ICEs.
    - za3faran 3y ago
      EVs also tend to be heavier than their ICE counterparts.
      - helsinkiandrew 3y ago
        > EVs also tend to be heavier than their ICE counterparts. As the parent comment said - but I was questioning about whether increased torque has an actual impact on tyre wear.
        argumentumm 3y ago
        Indeed I wonder at “normal” speeds (not racing say) does torque matter or is wear dominated by total miles driven? If I zoom to my destination do my tyres wear substantially more than if I take a more sedate approach? (Certainly when I was young and dumb my clutch wore more when I went dashing about).
wodenokoto 3y ago
> The people with the least amount of money end up having to move to apartments near highways In Dubai prime real estate is along the major highway Sheik Zayed Road. It’s funny how these things can be cultural.
- autoexec 3y ago
  Going by the look of the images on it's wikipedia page, most of the people next to that road aren't at/near ground level. I don't how many stories up you'd have to get before the pollution and noise aren't a problem, but I'm guessing the air only gets fresher the higher you go. Some of the reason why poor areas in the US are around highways and busy streets have to do with the history of redlining (https://phys.org/news/2024-02-highways-historically-redlined-areas-air.html https://phys.org/news/2024-02-highways-historically-redlined...). Even today when a city wants to build a loud/smelly/polluting highway or a factory or a landfill or a sewer treatment plant it's the poorest areas that are the least able to fight back, and putting them in the areas where poor people are will mean the least amount of inconvenience for the wealthy who often live far away from those neighborhoods. After a source of pollution is in place, very few people want to move in right next to it, so any houses there tend to be inexpensive and may be the only housing poor people can afford which further concentrates them into those areas.
- saberience 3y ago
  As someone that lives in Dubai, this isn’t accurate. No one wants to live right by Sheik Zayed road. People want to live by the sea on the Palm for example, JBR, or perhaps in the Marina area. Driving up SZ road, all you see are tons of shitty retailers and car dealerships. Trust me, wealthy people especially are not living next to it.
  - wodenokoto 3y ago
    Please take a look at the high-rise along sheik zayed in business bay, around down town and World Trade Center and explain to me how those are low end living. It’s all 4 and 5 star hotels with significant portions dedicated to long term (yearly) contracts. It’s only Al Quoz that is car dealerships. But on both sides of Al Quoz you find high-end, high rise
narag 3y ago
...but I've seen very nice and expensive apartments and houses very close to (or directly on) busy streets. Some of the most expensive houses in my neighbourhood are the closest to the highway. I just tried to check, but none of them are for sale right now. Traffic only decreases four hours at night but it never really stops. Only the noise is a big no-no.
HPsquared 3y ago
I've seen adverts for Chinese luxury apartments touting the built-in HEPA filtration systems. Seems to be a must-have if the air outside is polluted. Nobody seems to even think about this in building codes in the West. Especially, as you say, for apartments near major roads.
- lucioperca 3y ago
  Modern homes in Germany have ventilation with heat exchange which have some sort filter system. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontrollierte_Wohnrauml%C3%BCftung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontrollierte_Wohnrauml%C3%BCf...
- blagie 3y ago
  Filtration is a very good idea. HEPA filtration for residential use is dumb. A HEPA filter must remove at least 99.97% of aerosols 0.3μm in diameter. A filter which removed 99% and blows air 1% faster will remove just as much, or one which removes 50% and blows air twice as fast. For recirculating air, all of those accomplish the same thing. Some of those have much higher noise, running costs, and general upkeep than others. HEPA makes 100% sense for something where 100% of air passes through it. If you want an exhaust on a facility which handles biohazards, a vacuum cleaner kicking up dust, etc., sealed HEPA 100% is the way to go. That's not what happens in a residential building, though. For that application, it's just bad engineering.
  - zanfr 3y ago
    would be about time we HEPA'd everything in health care
    - blagie 3y ago
      Why? HEPA doesn't matter unless you have a sealed system. An open door or a cloth curtain means the 99.97% means nothing relative to 99%.
      - scottyah 3y ago

jasonfarnon 3y ago

If you looked nationally at wealth vs proximity to traffic, I would wager the "people with the least amount of money" are not the closest to traffic; are you suggesting otherwise? If only because of all the wealth that has come to cities in the last 20-25 yrs. Within that already wealthy urban demo I would agree, yes, the poorer wealthy are nearer to urban highways and thoroughfare than the wealthier wealthy.

CharlesW 3y ago
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6203a8.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6203a8.htm "In the United States, it is widely accepted that economically disadvantaged and minority populations share a disproportionate burden of air pollution exposure and risk (26,27). A growing body of evidence demonstrates that minority populations and persons of lower socioeconomic status experience higher residential exposure to traffic and traffic-related air pollution than nonminorities and persons of higher socioeconomic status (5,28–31). Two recent studies have confirmed that these racial/ethnic and socioeconomic disparities also exist on a national scale (32,33)."
- jasonfarnon 3y ago
  It's not surprising that minorities would be exposed to more traffic given the proportion that live in urban areas, but that doesn't rule out that the poorest in the country (minorities and whites) are not the most exposed. I guess my basic question is, are the poorest people still living in city centers? In my city the central, densest areas became some of the wealthiest, the quieter outlying areas the poorest.
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    > …that doesn't rule out that the poorest in the country (minorities and whites) are not the most exposed. Setting aside race, to me it seems like "economically disadvantaged populations share a disproportionate burden of traffic-related air pollution exposure" makes this pretty clear. <shrug>
    - mattgrice 3y ago
      It's not 1950, everyone on this site has a 1+ GFLOP machine so there's no need to squash a bunch of independent variables down to one dimension or as you call it "set aside race." Unless you're not a hacker, that is. Even into the 1960s wealthy black people were prevented from buying and living in the 'good' parts of even northern US cities.
      - porkbeer 3y ago
        Care to enlighten us as to the second paragraph? I only found some misc stuff, nothing appearing to be systemic or enshrined in law. In fact I see laws against such things being enforced more than lamented in searches.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    Why do you assume that fine particulate is at the highest in city centers? It's often higher than average, but the highest is frequently outside of the city center, where highways have been constructed through pre-existing, poorer neighborhoods. The South Bronx is the famous example of this[1]. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/04/new-york-south-bronx-minorities-pollution-inequity https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/04/new-york-sou...
hamandcheese 3y ago
For a very concrete example of this, within a city, see I-580 vs I-880 in Oakland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_580_(California)#Truck_ban_through_Oakland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_580_(California)#Tr...

ipqk 3y ago

And EVs make some problems worse, such as tire dust because they're heavier than an equivalent ICE car.

rjbwork 3y ago
Yep. Pretty much any kind of wear and tear part that is on an EV wears worse compared to a similarly powerful ICE. It's probably a wash or better because they don't use petroleum products for propulsion, but it is definitely a thing that needs to be considered. EV's are not some kind of panacea.
- Johnny555 3y ago
  Except brakes, since they are rarely used due to regenerative braking. Tires, on the other hand, do wear faster than a lighter ICE car. My EV has almost 30,000 miles now and will need tires soon, but other than washer fluid, it has had no other consumables or wear items replaced. Though to be fair, the tires on my previous ICE vehicle only lasted about 30,000 miles before they needed to be replaced, OEM car tires are often not long lasting. Brake fluid is due to be flushed next year, but not due to use of the brakes, just due to time.
  - Moto7451 3y ago
    Tire life also depends on where you live. In Atlanta, GA, I specifically haven’t made it more than 20K miles on a set of tires be it wear or road hazard. The issue with nails here is so bad there’s a guy on a bike picking them up with magnets. https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/atlanta-magnet-man-alex-benigno-bicycle https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/atlanta-magnet-man-alex-ben... That 20K set of tires had a slow leak from a nail that was patched incompletely. On the new set I had to replace two using the hazard insurance I purchased after three months and two thousand miles. I expect to use the insurance again. I now have an EV with sport summer tires. They’re at 5K miles and have a screw embedded in one tire since about 400 miles. That tire was deemed to be safe and best left alone as it’s presumed to be running through a rubber block only. I’m just running it until it goes flat assuming it doesn’t manage to survive its whole expected life span. Realistically I’ll end up running something else over this spring once construction gets into full swing.

savrajsingh 3y ago

what about the NYC subway / PATH train? The air quality there is pretty bad -- the trains use standard brakes.

autoexec 3y ago
I wouldn't spend more time on underground transportation systems than I had to. https://nypost.com/2023/05/13/subway-has-alarmingly-high-pollution-levels-study-finds/ https://nypost.com/2023/05/13/subway-has-alarmingly-high-pol...

onion2k 3y ago

Electric cars can help with some of the problems but don't solve all of them. In the case of brake dust specifically, presumably electric cars are worse because they're quite a bit heavier than ICE cars.

carlmr 3y ago
What you're saying is completely true for tire particulates, but if you drive an electric car normally you're almost never engaging the brakes. Since almost all normal amount of braking is in the envelope of where your regeneration braking can take all of the power. This counts even for hybrids though. A friend of mine had to replace his brakes after over 10 years and 180,000km on his Prius for the first time. Not because the brake pads were used up, but because the brake rotors started to rust too much from not being used. Of course if you're one of those people that floor it and hard brake at every stop light, this doesn't work, but for most cars it works really well.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- belorn 3y ago
  ICE cars can use engine braking, and here in Sweden it get focused as part of the driving license and associated training. I recall even getting the recommendation to "exercise" the breaks once in a while in order to assert that they actually do work when you needed, since breaks that don't get used enough can get rust buildup.
  - carlmr 3y ago
    Of course, this is also part of driver training in Germany. But the engine braking on EVs makes brakes only necessary for emergency braking if you're not driving like a maniac. With ICE engines you still need the brakes a lot more. Especially downhill.
davely 3y ago
I don’t think this is a 1:1 comparison though. Electric cars can utilize regenerative braking, which can significantly slow them down before needing to use friction from brake pads in order to stop.

highwaylights 3y ago

> before that there were also issues with asbestos in brakes, but thankfully those haven't been used since the 90s as far as I know I’d be careful with assuming that. A lot of consumables are imported directly from China, and the cost of car maintenance can be eye-watering, so it’s exactly the type of part I’d expect to be procured as cheaply as possible. People care about the brand of tyres on their car, I don’t even know of any brake pad brands.

riffraff 3y ago
DBrembo or AP Racing are somewhat well known brake manufacturers, but only matter for sport cars/motorbikes. OTOH I don't think most people care about tires either.

hacker_88 3y ago

EV use of Magnetic Braking reduce brake wear by alot . With One pedal driving in city not using brakes at all

yreg 3y ago
I almost never use breaks. It is a game for me, so I'm conscious of any time I have to use them. On the other hand, EVs unfortunately pollute more with tire particles (thanks to both higher torque - especially from 0 - and higher average mass).
- helsinkiandrew 3y ago
  > EVs unfortunately pollute more with tire particles (thanks to both higher torque - especially from 0 - and higher average mass). I wonder how much the higher torque of EVs is a real issue? Although they have the potential to do more aggressive acceleration and produce more tyre pollution, the Teslas I see leaving traffic stops seem to be accelerating the same as ICEs.
  - za3faran 3y ago
    EVs also tend to be heavier than their ICE counterparts.
    - helsinkiandrew 3y ago
      > EVs also tend to be heavier than their ICE counterparts. As the parent comment said - but I was questioning about whether increased torque has an actual impact on tyre wear.
      - argumentumm 3y ago
        Indeed I wonder at “normal” speeds (not racing say) does torque matter or is wear dominated by total miles driven? If I zoom to my destination do my tyres wear substantially more than if I take a more sedate approach? (Certainly when I was young and dumb my clutch wore more when I went dashing about).

wodenokoto 3y ago

> The people with the least amount of money end up having to move to apartments near highways In Dubai prime real estate is along the major highway Sheik Zayed Road. It’s funny how these things can be cultural.

autoexec 3y ago
Going by the look of the images on it's wikipedia page, most of the people next to that road aren't at/near ground level. I don't how many stories up you'd have to get before the pollution and noise aren't a problem, but I'm guessing the air only gets fresher the higher you go. Some of the reason why poor areas in the US are around highways and busy streets have to do with the history of redlining (https://phys.org/news/2024-02-highways-historically-redlined-areas-air.html https://phys.org/news/2024-02-highways-historically-redlined...). Even today when a city wants to build a loud/smelly/polluting highway or a factory or a landfill or a sewer treatment plant it's the poorest areas that are the least able to fight back, and putting them in the areas where poor people are will mean the least amount of inconvenience for the wealthy who often live far away from those neighborhoods. After a source of pollution is in place, very few people want to move in right next to it, so any houses there tend to be inexpensive and may be the only housing poor people can afford which further concentrates them into those areas.
saberience 3y ago
As someone that lives in Dubai, this isn’t accurate. No one wants to live right by Sheik Zayed road. People want to live by the sea on the Palm for example, JBR, or perhaps in the Marina area. Driving up SZ road, all you see are tons of shitty retailers and car dealerships. Trust me, wealthy people especially are not living next to it.
- wodenokoto 3y ago
  Please take a look at the high-rise along sheik zayed in business bay, around down town and World Trade Center and explain to me how those are low end living. It’s all 4 and 5 star hotels with significant portions dedicated to long term (yearly) contracts. It’s only Al Quoz that is car dealerships. But on both sides of Al Quoz you find high-end, high rise

narag 3y ago

...but I've seen very nice and expensive apartments and houses very close to (or directly on) busy streets. Some of the most expensive houses in my neighbourhood are the closest to the highway. I just tried to check, but none of them are for sale right now. Traffic only decreases four hours at night but it never really stops. Only the noise is a big no-no.

HPsquared 3y ago

I've seen adverts for Chinese luxury apartments touting the built-in HEPA filtration systems. Seems to be a must-have if the air outside is polluted. Nobody seems to even think about this in building codes in the West. Especially, as you say, for apartments near major roads.

lucioperca 3y ago
Modern homes in Germany have ventilation with heat exchange which have some sort filter system. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontrollierte_Wohnrauml%C3%BCftung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontrollierte_Wohnrauml%C3%BCf...
blagie 3y ago
Filtration is a very good idea. HEPA filtration for residential use is dumb. A HEPA filter must remove at least 99.97% of aerosols 0.3μm in diameter. A filter which removed 99% and blows air 1% faster will remove just as much, or one which removes 50% and blows air twice as fast. For recirculating air, all of those accomplish the same thing. Some of those have much higher noise, running costs, and general upkeep than others. HEPA makes 100% sense for something where 100% of air passes through it. If you want an exhaust on a facility which handles biohazards, a vacuum cleaner kicking up dust, etc., sealed HEPA 100% is the way to go. That's not what happens in a residential building, though. For that application, it's just bad engineering.
- zanfr 3y ago
  would be about time we HEPA'd everything in health care
  - blagie 3y ago
    Why? HEPA doesn't matter unless you have a sealed system. An open door or a cloth curtain means the 99.97% means nothing relative to 99%.
    - scottyah 3y ago