4 ms·

Let's compete with Tiktok on merit, not a targeted law. This seems wholly unfair, and for any US citizen, the bigger danger is the US government and its access

by sahila 3y ago

Let's compete with Tiktok on merit, not a targeted law. This seems wholly unfair, and for any US citizen, the bigger danger is the US government and its access to Meta/Google/etc data on its own citizens than what the Chinese government can do to Americans living in American.

swatcoder 3y ago
It's an extremely new idea to argue that restricting or stopping the imports of some good is "unfair", only becoming part of the dialog once the idea of a global economy in perpetual harmony supplants the idea of national sovereinty and strategic interest. But the intellectual tide is turning back against globalization and tension among major world powers is returning after the long quiet following the collapse of the USSR. Even if you think this is unfair, you should be ready to see it happen here and in many other places. That's the way the pendulum is swinging and it's got way more momentum behind it than a few online arguments can resist. If the anti-globalization movements, protests, and violence of the 1990's couldn't stop the west from swinging towards globalization, and the anti-war movements, protests, and violence of the 1960's couldn't stop Cold War entrenchment and polarization, we're probably not going to be able to stop whatever's happening now -- and if we are, we'll need much more developed arguments than "but that's not fair!"
- Manuel_D 3y ago
  > It's an extremely new idea to argue that restricting or stopping the imports of some good is "unfair", only becoming part of the dialog once the idea of a global economy in perpetual harmony supplants the idea of national sovereinty and strategic interest. And the irony is that China outright bans most (all?) American social media companies. It's not just a new idea, it's a hypocritical one too.
Manuel_D 3y ago
I agree: ByteDance should compete on merit, without being sheltered from competition by China's bans on foreign social media companies. Until then, why should America allow Chinese social media in its market when that access is not reciprocated? That's a much stronger rationale to ban TikTok than the national security argument, in my opinion.
- sahila 3y ago
  Why does what China is doing with their laws bother you - should we institute the same internet restrictions because they are? China's support of Tiktok isn't what's allowing them to win out here in the US and that's what's of relevance to us in the West.
  - Manuel_D 3y ago
    No, but one-sided trade agreements are generally not the norm in international trade. Country A agrees not to put tariffs on Country B's cars if it doesn't put tariffs on Country A's cars. Reciprocal treatment is the norm. If country C outright bans country A's cars why should country A allow country C's cars in it's market?
halJordan 3y ago
I wouldn't deny that there's probably some people in govt who want to what you are implicitly assuming. However you have to deny the reasons given (which you do) to make your case. Unfortunately you can't just gainsay someone because your version fits your narrative better. I dont even think you realize you're doing what you claim the g-men are doing. It's also not a competition for who can hurt Americans most, and it's certainly not a "well we can't do perfection so we will do nothing."
hollerith 3y ago
>for any US citizen, the bigger danger is the US government and its access to Meta/Google/etc data on its own citizens than what the Chinese government can do to Americans living in American. I disagree. (I'm American.) Danger one is considerable and not to be scoffed at, but danger two is greater in my estimation because for example Tiktok and other Chinese sites can help the Chinese steal machine-learning models created in the US.
- sahila 3y ago
  How exactly is a machine learning model stolen this way? Or do you just mean they can collect data to train a better model.
  - hollerith 3y ago
    Employees are tempted to use TikTok at work (and some employees are even addicted to TikTok) so the TikTok app has access to internal company networks, which is the most difficult part of attacking a company's systems.

by sahila 3y ago

swatcoder 3y ago

It's an extremely new idea to argue that restricting or stopping the imports of some good is "unfair", only becoming part of the dialog once the idea of a global economy in perpetual harmony supplants the idea of national sovereinty and strategic interest. But the intellectual tide is turning back against globalization and tension among major world powers is returning after the long quiet following the collapse of the USSR. Even if you think this is unfair, you should be ready to see it happen here and in many other places. That's the way the pendulum is swinging and it's got way more momentum behind it than a few online arguments can resist. If the anti-globalization movements, protests, and violence of the 1990's couldn't stop the west from swinging towards globalization, and the anti-war movements, protests, and violence of the 1960's couldn't stop Cold War entrenchment and polarization, we're probably not going to be able to stop whatever's happening now -- and if we are, we'll need much more developed arguments than "but that's not fair!"

Manuel_D 3y ago
> It's an extremely new idea to argue that restricting or stopping the imports of some good is "unfair", only becoming part of the dialog once the idea of a global economy in perpetual harmony supplants the idea of national sovereinty and strategic interest. And the irony is that China outright bans most (all?) American social media companies. It's not just a new idea, it's a hypocritical one too.

Manuel_D 3y ago

I agree: ByteDance should compete on merit, without being sheltered from competition by China's bans on foreign social media companies. Until then, why should America allow Chinese social media in its market when that access is not reciprocated? That's a much stronger rationale to ban TikTok than the national security argument, in my opinion.

sahila 3y ago
Why does what China is doing with their laws bother you - should we institute the same internet restrictions because they are? China's support of Tiktok isn't what's allowing them to win out here in the US and that's what's of relevance to us in the West.
- Manuel_D 3y ago
  No, but one-sided trade agreements are generally not the norm in international trade. Country A agrees not to put tariffs on Country B's cars if it doesn't put tariffs on Country A's cars. Reciprocal treatment is the norm. If country C outright bans country A's cars why should country A allow country C's cars in it's market?

halJordan 3y ago

I wouldn't deny that there's probably some people in govt who want to what you are implicitly assuming. However you have to deny the reasons given (which you do) to make your case. Unfortunately you can't just gainsay someone because your version fits your narrative better. I dont even think you realize you're doing what you claim the g-men are doing. It's also not a competition for who can hurt Americans most, and it's certainly not a "well we can't do perfection so we will do nothing."

hollerith 3y ago

>for any US citizen, the bigger danger is the US government and its access to Meta/Google/etc data on its own citizens than what the Chinese government can do to Americans living in American. I disagree. (I'm American.) Danger one is considerable and not to be scoffed at, but danger two is greater in my estimation because for example Tiktok and other Chinese sites can help the Chinese steal machine-learning models created in the US.

sahila 3y ago
How exactly is a machine learning model stolen this way? Or do you just mean they can collect data to train a better model.
- hollerith 3y ago
  Employees are tempted to use TikTok at work (and some employees are even addicted to TikTok) so the TikTok app has access to internal company networks, which is the most difficult part of attacking a company's systems.