4 ms·

> What will be left? Where will we be? Just stranded without dignity or purpose, left to rot when we no longer produce value. Nobody stops you from paying $100

> What will be left? Where will we be? Just stranded without dignity or purpose, left to rot when we no longer produce value. Nobody stops you from paying $1000 for a shirt made by artisans right now. Do you want to? > Our governments and society have made it clear, if you don't produce value, you don't deserve dignity. It's not somebody else who decided that. It's you.

ethanwillis 3y ago
> Nobody stops you from paying $1000 for a shirt made by artisans right now. Do you want to? If you don't do <insert extreme edge case> then your point is invalid. /s. Look, you dont have to pay $1000 for a shirt made by an artisan to get a quality shirt. It can be a bit more expensive, but much cheaper than that. And this can be true while being fair/reasonable to the artisan and also to the person acquiring it. > It's not somebody else who decided that. It's you. And what about my decisions? Or your decisions. Or anyone who is reading this's decisions? Surely the person you're replying to isn't some dictator who is deciding everything. It's not just the parent comment then. It's not just "It's you"
- x-complexity 3y ago
  > > Nobody stops you from paying $1000 for a shirt made by artisans right now. Do you want to? > If you don't do <insert extreme edge case> then your point is invalid. /s. > Look, you dont have to pay $1000 for a shirt made by an artisan to get a quality shirt. It can be a bit more expensive, but much cheaper than that. And this can be true while being fair/reasonable to the artisan and also to the person acquiring it. In the ideal case, this would be true: Following classical economics, there would be some predictable demand left as you go up the price curve, assuming genuine quality & labour. However, this doesn't seem to be the case. The existence of low-cost mass-produced options leads to the satiation of demand above that spot of the curve. There still exists demand, but it's weirdly lower than predicted. People can shop down the price curve, but relatively fewer would do the opposite.
  - ethanwillis 3y ago
    The point is being missed. The comment above mine was simply trying to make some strawman (i know, i know) about what the author's intent was. The author surely wouldn't suggest we should be paying $1000 for a shirt. I don't think it was a reply in good faith, even though we're not supposed to suggest as such here. Aside from that I do think you make a good point and I'll need to think about it.
MSFT_Edging 3y ago
I bought a pair of 350 dollar boots that can be repaired many times. That was five years ago, with a recent re-sole this past summer. This isn't an exaggeration by the way, but the cobbler who did the resole thanked me for bringing him the job, as it was a genuinely enjoyable experience for him. I assume most of his work is repairing suitcases going by the other clientele in the shop. But sure, exaggerate that to be an artisan you need to be selling 1000 dollar shirts, rather than doing a 100 dollar service that doubles or triples the life of a decently made item.
Rumudiez 3y ago
I have a few handmade shirts that were all between $70-100. I buy the occasional oddity from Etsy and those things (the ones I buy) are all handmade and most of them are quite affordable – on par with shopping at Target for comparison. I’m 100% certain the artists are thankful they can be professional creators instead of becoming a wage worker or living off of some form of basic income
- azinman2 3y ago
  Where do you get them?
feoren 3y ago
> > Our governments and society have made it clear, if you don't produce value, you don't deserve dignity. > It's not somebody else who decided that. It's you. No. The Republican National Convention cheered the idea of letting the poor and sick just die off in the streets. They cheered. Ron Paul asked "what are we supposed to do? Let our sick and poor just die cold in the streets?" and they cheered. Jobs are sacred in the U.S. Job creators must be worshipped. Hard-working Americans are the lifeblood of yadda yadda. As soon as you don't have a job: fuck you, scum, you deserve to die in the streets. You are no longer of use to the wealthy, so you do not even have the dignity to sleep on benches or under bridges: they add spikes to any area you might find any comfort. Your children cannot receive an education. You get to disappear from view into some secluded slum until you die of the cold. It's not GP that decided that. It's tens (hundreds?) of millions of Americans who will cheer on your death if you lose your job. Most of which, of course, are a couple paychecks or a major illness away from being homeless themselves. Do not act like that's not a real thing.
- golergka 3y ago
  You are literally agreeing with me and yet phrase it as if we’re arguing about something? I’m confused.
  - feoren 3y ago
    I quoted you directly. You said that it's not "somebody else" who decided the unemployed deserve no dignity, but that it's MSFT_Edging decided that. Like, he's the only one who thinks that? It makes no sense. It's not something he imagined, nor is it his fault. So how does your comment that I quoted and responded to make even the tiniest modicum of sense?
- sandspar 3y ago
  You're really passionate but you're strawmanning all over the place.
  - feoren 3y ago
    I wish I was straw-manning. It'd be great if my description was an overly pessimistic caricature of a major political party. Unfortunately, it's not. It wasn't some political cartoon of people cheering on the deaths of the poor and sick. It was real people. I could understand why someone reading my description would think "wow what a perverse view of people this misanthrope has" -- if that person had no exposure to U.S. politics; never watched interviews with these people; never actually listened to the things they're actually saying. Not straw men. Real people.

ethanwillis 3y ago

> Nobody stops you from paying $1000 for a shirt made by artisans right now. Do you want to? If you don't do <insert extreme edge case> then your point is invalid. /s. Look, you dont have to pay $1000 for a shirt made by an artisan to get a quality shirt. It can be a bit more expensive, but much cheaper than that. And this can be true while being fair/reasonable to the artisan and also to the person acquiring it. > It's not somebody else who decided that. It's you. And what about my decisions? Or your decisions. Or anyone who is reading this's decisions? Surely the person you're replying to isn't some dictator who is deciding everything. It's not just the parent comment then. It's not just "It's you"

x-complexity 3y ago
> > Nobody stops you from paying $1000 for a shirt made by artisans right now. Do you want to? > If you don't do <insert extreme edge case> then your point is invalid. /s. > Look, you dont have to pay $1000 for a shirt made by an artisan to get a quality shirt. It can be a bit more expensive, but much cheaper than that. And this can be true while being fair/reasonable to the artisan and also to the person acquiring it. In the ideal case, this would be true: Following classical economics, there would be some predictable demand left as you go up the price curve, assuming genuine quality & labour. However, this doesn't seem to be the case. The existence of low-cost mass-produced options leads to the satiation of demand above that spot of the curve. There still exists demand, but it's weirdly lower than predicted. People can shop down the price curve, but relatively fewer would do the opposite.
- ethanwillis 3y ago
  The point is being missed. The comment above mine was simply trying to make some strawman (i know, i know) about what the author's intent was. The author surely wouldn't suggest we should be paying $1000 for a shirt. I don't think it was a reply in good faith, even though we're not supposed to suggest as such here. Aside from that I do think you make a good point and I'll need to think about it.

MSFT_Edging 3y ago

I bought a pair of 350 dollar boots that can be repaired many times. That was five years ago, with a recent re-sole this past summer. This isn't an exaggeration by the way, but the cobbler who did the resole thanked me for bringing him the job, as it was a genuinely enjoyable experience for him. I assume most of his work is repairing suitcases going by the other clientele in the shop. But sure, exaggerate that to be an artisan you need to be selling 1000 dollar shirts, rather than doing a 100 dollar service that doubles or triples the life of a decently made item.

Rumudiez 3y ago

I have a few handmade shirts that were all between $70-100. I buy the occasional oddity from Etsy and those things (the ones I buy) are all handmade and most of them are quite affordable – on par with shopping at Target for comparison. I’m 100% certain the artists are thankful they can be professional creators instead of becoming a wage worker or living off of some form of basic income

azinman2 3y ago
Where do you get them?

feoren 3y ago

> > Our governments and society have made it clear, if you don't produce value, you don't deserve dignity. > It's not somebody else who decided that. It's you. No. The Republican National Convention cheered the idea of letting the poor and sick just die off in the streets. They cheered. Ron Paul asked "what are we supposed to do? Let our sick and poor just die cold in the streets?" and they cheered. Jobs are sacred in the U.S. Job creators must be worshipped. Hard-working Americans are the lifeblood of yadda yadda. As soon as you don't have a job: fuck you, scum, you deserve to die in the streets. You are no longer of use to the wealthy, so you do not even have the dignity to sleep on benches or under bridges: they add spikes to any area you might find any comfort. Your children cannot receive an education. You get to disappear from view into some secluded slum until you die of the cold. It's not GP that decided that. It's tens (hundreds?) of millions of Americans who will cheer on your death if you lose your job. Most of which, of course, are a couple paychecks or a major illness away from being homeless themselves. Do not act like that's not a real thing.

golergka 3y ago
You are literally agreeing with me and yet phrase it as if we’re arguing about something? I’m confused.
- feoren 3y ago
  I quoted you directly. You said that it's not "somebody else" who decided the unemployed deserve no dignity, but that it's MSFT_Edging decided that. Like, he's the only one who thinks that? It makes no sense. It's not something he imagined, nor is it his fault. So how does your comment that I quoted and responded to make even the tiniest modicum of sense?
sandspar 3y ago
You're really passionate but you're strawmanning all over the place.
- feoren 3y ago
  I wish I was straw-manning. It'd be great if my description was an overly pessimistic caricature of a major political party. Unfortunately, it's not. It wasn't some political cartoon of people cheering on the deaths of the poor and sick. It was real people. I could understand why someone reading my description would think "wow what a perverse view of people this misanthrope has" -- if that person had no exposure to U.S. politics; never watched interviews with these people; never actually listened to the things they're actually saying. Not straw men. Real people.