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As a user, I cannot recommend iPhone to my older relatives if there is a way to run arbitrary code beyond Safari’s JS sandbox. Simple as that. It is a nuanced

As a user, I cannot recommend iPhone to my older relatives if there is a way to run arbitrary code beyond Safari’s JS sandbox. Simple as that. It is a nuanced question with a computer[0], but for a phone (increasingly used for more important transactions and sensitive private data by people more naive when it comes to security) it is simply a no-brainer. Unless cyber crime is prosecuted as robustly as robberies, I want this kind of jail to constrain the device. Believe it or not, it is a feature. [0] I do run arbitrary code on my MBP, but then I am a dev who writes code. And, being that, I recently re-enabled the warning for running non-app-store apps on my Mac—I consider myself proficient enough, but perhaps that is exactly why I prefer having to go through an extra warning dialog if it helps reduce the attack surface.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
I work across the street from a well-known security research group who has been on HN front page before. Every one of them uses iPhones because they cannot be rooted and are encrypted by default. Venn of old people and at least one group of security professionals.
- e44858 3y ago
  > cannot be rooted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking
  - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
    Remind me what the bounty is for an iPhone jailbreak right now, would you please?
    - e44858 3y ago
      Can't find prices for a jailbreak, but a zero click full chain exploit with persistence is $2.5M for Android, $2M for iPhone: https://zerodium.com/images/zerodium_prices_mobiles.png https://zerodium.com/images/zerodium_prices_mobiles.png Seems iPhone exploits got cheaper because they're too abundant: https://twitter.com/Zerodium/status/1260541578747064326 https://twitter.com/Zerodium/status/1260541578747064326 Apple has released phones with major vulnerabilities hard-coded in the silicon. When the checkra1n jailbreak was released, the only fix was to buy a new phone because it exploited flaws in the bootrom & secure enclave silicon. https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2019/09/new-ios-exploit-checkm8-allows-permanent-compromise-of-iphones https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2019/09/new-ios-explo... https://checkra.in/news/2020/09/iOS-14-announcement https://checkra.in/news/2020/09/iOS-14-announcement
      - goblin89 3y ago
        (That was in 2020, as of iOS 13 IIRC. It’d be interesting how much of that works against the current iOS 17, and whether Zerodium simply had cashflow issues at the time.)
        e44858 3y ago
        checkra1n was abandoned, but palera1n seems to use the same vulnerabilities and works with iOS 17. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Table_of_tools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Table_of_tool...
        goblin89 3y ago
        17.3, and not a zero-click exploit but a jailbreak tool.
ianlevesque 3y ago
If you need to infantilize your relatives because they cannot be trusted with their devices, then MDM them, or even have that be the default. But we do not need to surrender in the war on general purpose computing for it.
- goblin89 3y ago
  > MDM them Many of us cannot afford the luxury of working overtime as tech support for relatives. I personally do not even think I can do a good enough job at that for myself, in fact—I would have to be a professional information security researcher. Furthermore, I am sure if there is enough misplaced outrage, MDM will be unable to restrict this. > But we do not need to surrender in the war on general purpose computing for it. Where is that war? General purpose computing is everywhere, with all of its associated benefits and liabilities[0]. iOS has more or less been the only island where it is reliably not an option, that making it preferred for the reasons I mention. [0] How many of us literally airgap machines that run unvetted code (at least once you realize that all vitalization and containerization is circumventable), not letting any personal data on them? How feasible is that with a phone, and by an average person that is not exactly infosec-savvy but who is obligated to have a phone to simply get on with daily life?
  - miggol 3y ago
    What is your opinion on S-mode in Windows? I don't agree with the hyperbole of the person you're replying to. But I also don't think the possibility of fair competition is mutually excusive with the security of the vulnerable few. That's assuming that something like an opt-in lockdown mode is compatible with the DMA.
    - goblin89 3y ago
      I believe the vulnerable (the non-infosec-experts) are not few but majority. It’s a spectrum, and I’m definitely on it. For example, I don’t know anything about the S-mode.
- badwolf 3y ago
no_time 3y ago
> As a user, I cannot recommend iPhone to my older relatives if there is a way to run arbitrary code beyond Safari’s JS sandbox. Simple as that. This is a false dichotomy made in bad faith. You can have open computers and security for those who you wish to infantilize. Chromebooks for example have physical write protect screw inside to do exactly this: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Remove+the+Write+Protect+Screw/86362 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Remove+the+Write+Protect+Screw/... I fully expect the company that engineered the Vision Pro to come up with something like this if they wanted to. But they choose to spread FUD to continue collecting rent on the appstore instead.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago

I work across the street from a well-known security research group who has been on HN front page before. Every one of them uses iPhones because they cannot be rooted and are encrypted by default. Venn of old people and at least one group of security professionals.

e44858 3y ago
> cannot be rooted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  Remind me what the bounty is for an iPhone jailbreak right now, would you please?
  - e44858 3y ago
    Can't find prices for a jailbreak, but a zero click full chain exploit with persistence is $2.5M for Android, $2M for iPhone: https://zerodium.com/images/zerodium_prices_mobiles.png https://zerodium.com/images/zerodium_prices_mobiles.png Seems iPhone exploits got cheaper because they're too abundant: https://twitter.com/Zerodium/status/1260541578747064326 https://twitter.com/Zerodium/status/1260541578747064326 Apple has released phones with major vulnerabilities hard-coded in the silicon. When the checkra1n jailbreak was released, the only fix was to buy a new phone because it exploited flaws in the bootrom & secure enclave silicon. https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2019/09/new-ios-exploit-checkm8-allows-permanent-compromise-of-iphones https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2019/09/new-ios-explo... https://checkra.in/news/2020/09/iOS-14-announcement https://checkra.in/news/2020/09/iOS-14-announcement
    - goblin89 3y ago
      (That was in 2020, as of iOS 13 IIRC. It’d be interesting how much of that works against the current iOS 17, and whether Zerodium simply had cashflow issues at the time.)
      - e44858 3y ago
        checkra1n was abandoned, but palera1n seems to use the same vulnerabilities and works with iOS 17. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Table_of_tools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Table_of_tool...
        goblin89 3y ago
        17.3, and not a zero-click exploit but a jailbreak tool.

ianlevesque 3y ago

If you need to infantilize your relatives because they cannot be trusted with their devices, then MDM them, or even have that be the default. But we do not need to surrender in the war on general purpose computing for it.

goblin89 3y ago
> MDM them Many of us cannot afford the luxury of working overtime as tech support for relatives. I personally do not even think I can do a good enough job at that for myself, in fact—I would have to be a professional information security researcher. Furthermore, I am sure if there is enough misplaced outrage, MDM will be unable to restrict this. > But we do not need to surrender in the war on general purpose computing for it. Where is that war? General purpose computing is everywhere, with all of its associated benefits and liabilities[0]. iOS has more or less been the only island where it is reliably not an option, that making it preferred for the reasons I mention. [0] How many of us literally airgap machines that run unvetted code (at least once you realize that all vitalization and containerization is circumventable), not letting any personal data on them? How feasible is that with a phone, and by an average person that is not exactly infosec-savvy but who is obligated to have a phone to simply get on with daily life?
- miggol 3y ago
  What is your opinion on S-mode in Windows? I don't agree with the hyperbole of the person you're replying to. But I also don't think the possibility of fair competition is mutually excusive with the security of the vulnerable few. That's assuming that something like an opt-in lockdown mode is compatible with the DMA.
  - goblin89 3y ago
    I believe the vulnerable (the non-infosec-experts) are not few but majority. It’s a spectrum, and I’m definitely on it. For example, I don’t know anything about the S-mode.
badwolf 3y ago

no_time 3y ago

> As a user, I cannot recommend iPhone to my older relatives if there is a way to run arbitrary code beyond Safari’s JS sandbox. Simple as that. This is a false dichotomy made in bad faith. You can have open computers and security for those who you wish to infantilize. Chromebooks for example have physical write protect screw inside to do exactly this: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Remove+the+Write+Protect+Screw/86362 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Remove+the+Write+Protect+Screw/... I fully expect the company that engineered the Vision Pro to come up with something like this if they wanted to. But they choose to spread FUD to continue collecting rent on the appstore instead.