4 ms·

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream plea

by a_c_s 3y ago

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult had their accent it would be barely intelligible (and in fact many small children are hard to understand by people who don't spend a lot of time with them). Here's one speech sound development guide for English: https://childdevelopment.com.au/resources/child-development-charts/speech-sounds-developmental-chart/ https://childdevelopment.com.au/resources/child-development-... It is amazing to watch how fast small children grow and develop but we also (rightfully) grade them on a curve. It is when we compare them to adults that somehow we forget the curve being applied.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
simonbarker87 3y ago
Just a thought from someone who speaks English and a smattering of Spanish. If the child can correctly express the idea/intent they want and be understood then arguably they have learned that part of the language. Sure it might not sound how an adult would be likewise they probably don’t in their native language either right? I doubt anyone is saying that kids learn to speak the language perfectly but clearly there is a pattern where by they are able to understand and express themselves faster than adults - even if they sound childish still.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  The person you're responding to said that children are graded on a curve. Your response is that children should be graded on a curve. Fine, but only being understood by your mother when near an ice cream shop is not the goal for adults learning a second language.
- a_c_s 3y ago
  I would actually argue that if a child and an adult spent the same amount of time engaged in language learning and were graded on the same metrics the adult would get farther. I don't think there's a magical cutoff where we suddenly can't learn languages anymore. Rather, I think it is partly because we grade them on a curve that children are said to be amazing linguists Children have many other advantages that also help them: * More free time * Fewer internal distractions (Did I lock the door? What am I making for dinner? etc.) * Not being afraid to make mistakes
kwhitefoot 3y ago
My children went to kindergarten (barnehage) in Norway when they were about three and a half and speaking English well. Well with a year they were indistinguishable from the native children.
- a_c_s 3y ago
  Right, but the parent comment is comparing children to adults. Even a native speaking 3.5 year old actually speaks a language very poorly compared to a native speaking adult.
MichaelRo 3y ago
I've observed my kiddo when he was a toddler and I think there might be an inflection point when they are very young and don't speak so well, when they might be able to learn any language with ease, precisely because they don't recognize let alone speak even their own so well. I recall my kid was watching TV and all and at some point while eating he pointed to a drawing on a cocoa box and said "monkey!" in English, and indeed it was a monkey. Must have picked it up from cartoons or something. But then there's a point of no return when they learn enough native language from which point on any attempt at a foreign one becomes deliberate practice that requires effort. And this point of no return follows very early from the point when they start to speak.
brabel 3y ago
My example above was of a 5 year old. At that age, she already spoke her own language fluently so that anyone understood her well (of course, they still have a smaller vocabulary at this age as they haven't been able to talk about all sorts of topics yet). Do you think a normal 5yo normally still speaks blurry?? Or a 6yo? At this age, and even up to perhaps 12yo, as far as I can tell, they're able to absorb another language quite easily, and it only becomes harder around age 14 or so... though of course I haven't run an experiment or anything. I expect your learning curve becomes worse gradually between the ages of 14 and 30, maybe very slowly up to mid 40's.
- a_c_s 3y ago
  If a non-native English speaking 5 year old said "I goed to school today" people would say they are native level. (Even though they used the non-word "goed" as the past tense of "to go" instead of "went") If a non-native English speaking 15 year old said "I goed to school today" people wouldn't say, "wow, they are a native speaker" nor would they say "wow, they are natively speaking like a 5-year-old" - they would say they still needed practice. That's my point - speaking like a 5 year old as an adult wouldn't be considered native by anyone but a 5 year old. As you get older the standard is higher: speaking like a 10 year old is much harder than speaking like a 5 year old. So for a 10 year old just learning a new language it may take longer than the 5 year old to get to their age level. That doesn't necessarily mean the 10 year old is worse at learning languages though since they have so much more to learn to be considered "native".

by a_c_s 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

simonbarker87 3y ago

Just a thought from someone who speaks English and a smattering of Spanish. If the child can correctly express the idea/intent they want and be understood then arguably they have learned that part of the language. Sure it might not sound how an adult would be likewise they probably don’t in their native language either right? I doubt anyone is saying that kids learn to speak the language perfectly but clearly there is a pattern where by they are able to understand and express themselves faster than adults - even if they sound childish still.

pessimizer 3y ago
The person you're responding to said that children are graded on a curve. Your response is that children should be graded on a curve. Fine, but only being understood by your mother when near an ice cream shop is not the goal for adults learning a second language.
a_c_s 3y ago
I would actually argue that if a child and an adult spent the same amount of time engaged in language learning and were graded on the same metrics the adult would get farther. I don't think there's a magical cutoff where we suddenly can't learn languages anymore. Rather, I think it is partly because we grade them on a curve that children are said to be amazing linguists Children have many other advantages that also help them: * More free time * Fewer internal distractions (Did I lock the door? What am I making for dinner? etc.) * Not being afraid to make mistakes

kwhitefoot 3y ago

My children went to kindergarten (barnehage) in Norway when they were about three and a half and speaking English well. Well with a year they were indistinguishable from the native children.

a_c_s 3y ago
Right, but the parent comment is comparing children to adults. Even a native speaking 3.5 year old actually speaks a language very poorly compared to a native speaking adult.

MichaelRo 3y ago

I've observed my kiddo when he was a toddler and I think there might be an inflection point when they are very young and don't speak so well, when they might be able to learn any language with ease, precisely because they don't recognize let alone speak even their own so well. I recall my kid was watching TV and all and at some point while eating he pointed to a drawing on a cocoa box and said "monkey!" in English, and indeed it was a monkey. Must have picked it up from cartoons or something. But then there's a point of no return when they learn enough native language from which point on any attempt at a foreign one becomes deliberate practice that requires effort. And this point of no return follows very early from the point when they start to speak.

brabel 3y ago

My example above was of a 5 year old. At that age, she already spoke her own language fluently so that anyone understood her well (of course, they still have a smaller vocabulary at this age as they haven't been able to talk about all sorts of topics yet). Do you think a normal 5yo normally still speaks blurry?? Or a 6yo? At this age, and even up to perhaps 12yo, as far as I can tell, they're able to absorb another language quite easily, and it only becomes harder around age 14 or so... though of course I haven't run an experiment or anything. I expect your learning curve becomes worse gradually between the ages of 14 and 30, maybe very slowly up to mid 40's.

a_c_s 3y ago
If a non-native English speaking 5 year old said "I goed to school today" people would say they are native level. (Even though they used the non-word "goed" as the past tense of "to go" instead of "went") If a non-native English speaking 15 year old said "I goed to school today" people wouldn't say, "wow, they are a native speaker" nor would they say "wow, they are natively speaking like a 5-year-old" - they would say they still needed practice. That's my point - speaking like a 5 year old as an adult wouldn't be considered native by anyone but a 5 year old. As you get older the standard is higher: speaking like a 10 year old is much harder than speaking like a 5 year old. So for a 10 year old just learning a new language it may take longer than the 5 year old to get to their age level. That doesn't necessarily mean the 10 year old is worse at learning languages though since they have so much more to learn to be considered "native".