4 ms·
So checking my dictionary: - Apartheid: (in South Africa) a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race. - Terrorism: the unlawful us
by nsguy 3y ago
So checking my dictionary:
- Apartheid: (in South Africa) a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.
- Terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
I don't think your argument on the language aspect of this holds water or at the very least your example is not equivalent. Nobody even knows if terrorism originates from Irish vs. British (which I doubt, references?) but everyone knows the word Apartheid refers to a specific South African situation and they are intentionally trying to evoke those images.
You are restating my point to suit yourself, I didn't ask the question of whether "Israel practices apartheid", I said the premise of this question is to paint Israel in a bad light and you've not refuted that. Are there other countries (e.g. China) where minorities (e.g. the Uighurs) are discriminated against? Do people routinely ask the question whether "China practices apartheid"? Google won't auto-complete that for me. Is there a case against China for Apartheid? I rest my case.
Re: your specific points
a) Sort of maybe true but partly no different than other countries. Does the Czech republic allow WW-II German refugees to return to their homes? Does Syria allow me to immigrate there? Does Switzerland? You're mixing different issues here which warrant their separate discussion. Israel is a country and it gets to decide who to award citizenship to, just like any other country. The West Bank and settlements is its own discussion. Freedom of migration is not a thing, there's no country with freedom of migration. When Germany was occupied post WW-II did Germans enjoy freedom of migration to the Allied countries?
b) Inaccurate. Israelis have to travel through the same checkpoints that Palestinians travel through in the west bank. They have worse restrictions on travel to west bank areas under PA control. Gaza internally has no severe restrictions (well, they have Hamas checkpoints but those don't interest you) and externally has similar restrictions to any border between countries on their Israeli and Egyptian borders (unfriendly countries or at war countries). Gaza in its current borders is exactly the area that would be Palestinian as part of a two state solution and the region considered "occupied" from Egypt in 1967 under international law. Some of the west bank checkpoints exist for security reasons because Palestinian "freedom" fighters go into Israel and kill civilians and generally they're still well within my observation that this is occupied territory under military rule.
c) Yes but both are subject to oversight by Israel's Supreme Court. This is in accordance with international law for occupied territories.
d) I'll give you a yes on this one though there are nuances and also the Palestinians could have gotten the west bank by now. Fwiw I agree the settlement activity is not good but the settlements can still be removed as part of a political solution (which looks impossible now).
e) Maybe. I'm honestly not knowledgeable enough on the water aspects. Israel desalinated water and generally invests in infrastructure but I can't really give an educated answer on this topic so I'll pass. I will repeat that there are many aspects of what's going on in the west bank where I oppose Israeli policy and that the fact that Israel is there is related to Palestinians refusal to settle the conflict.
f) Sure. This is wrong. Palestinians also terrorize settlers, shoot at their cars, throw stones at them (stones kill) etc. Still wrong but a part of the cycle/circle of violence. Many/most of these are what the "crazy settlers" call "tag mechir", i.e. "price", they are retaliating against attacks. E.g. Israeli civilians get killed, they go into a village and set a house on fire. This is medieval level "justice" which we don't want to practice today but just for context.
EDIT: I just want to expand more on the question of checkpoints. Before the first Intifada in 1987 there was relatively free movement of people between the Gaza and the West Bank and Israel. Israelis shopped in markets, went to dentists in the west bank etc. Lots of Israelis went there because prices were lower. Palestinians came to work in Israel, many in construction. Israeli cities were full of Palestinians from the west bank and Gaza. There was still political violence (aka terrorism) by Palestinians against Israeli civilians (e.g. by the PLO and other factions). I would say the biggest restrictions in place today, including the wall build around the west bank, are a result of the suicide bombing attacks of the early 2000's. Those saying that the violence of today is justified by the restrictions forget that the restrictions are in place because of the violence, not the other way around. You also need to keep in mind that the Arab countries surrounding Israel at the time were at war with Israel and holding on to the west bank was a strategic necessity so you don't have hundreds of tanks and artillery 3km from your major cities. Israel was then, as is now, in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation. Ofcourse within that there is still colour and room for being critical of Israel.
EDIT2: Expanding on "Apartheid". Why is this term used when it's obviously incorrect/inappropriate? It serves a few purposes: To broadly paint Israelis and Jews as racists, to create an image of the Palestinians being the "Black" and the Israelis being the "White", to push for Israel to be treated by the world community like South Africa was treated, and more generally to justify indiscriminate violence against Israelis and Jews. It is a modern blood libel. There is no issue raising the specific issues you've raised against Israel, debating them, and for Israel to be held accountable (within reason and international standards). That's not what's going on here.
- runarberg 3y agoThe crime of apartheid has been codified in International law, it has a precise definition at the ICC[1] and the ICJ[2]. In particular the ICC defines apartheid in Statute 99 part 2 article 7 paragraph 2(h), as: > "The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime; Aside note here: Statute 99 is known as the Rome Statute, Palestine is a party to this statute but Israel is not (withdrew in 2002). Meaning if you practice apartheid in Palestine you can be tried at the ICC, while in Israel the ICC has no jurisdiction to trial you for this specific crime. Even though the term was coined to describe the specific instance of South African apartheid, its modern day usage only keeps South Africa as a prototypical example. This is no different from how the “genocide” was coined with one prototypical example (the Armenian genocide) but has later been adopted into international law with a precise meaning laid out in the Genocide Convention[3]. Your dictionary definition is about the specific meaning of apartheid in South Africa (notice it says so in parenthesis; when looking up terms in a dictionary what is inside parentheses is for disambiguation and should be to ignored). And we are not talking about that. We are talking about apartheid in the same way that the UN does. If you want to argue that Israel does not practice South African apartheid, then that is a different argument, and I’m not gonna refute that, but then we are just arguing semantics. Regarding the specific points (a)-(f) I provided them as examples of what we mean when we accuse Israel of practicing apartheid. I wasn’t looking to argue them. There is an ongoing trial at the ICJ which is going over all of these, and more, to figure out if any of them are justifiable, not true, etc. or if they constitute a crime against humanity. You believe the former, me the latter. Finally, can you please not accuse us of “blood libel” for criticizing Israel. Israel is a modern state which deserves the scrutiny we give other states (including China). The fact is that Israel is currently being charged for these crimes at the ICJ, the UN general assembly constantly votes to indict Israel of these crimes, respectable human rights organization accuse Israel of these crimes. Either the whole world is in some conspiracy against Israel, or—more likely—there is convincing evidence that Israel does indeed break some international humanitarian laws. 1: https://legal.un.org/icc/statute/99_corr/cstatute.htm#art.7 https://legal.un.org/icc/statute/99_corr/cstatute.htm#art.7 2: https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/1976/07/19760718%2003-04%20AM/Ch_IV_7p.pdf https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/1976/07/19760718%2003-0... 3: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_and_Punishment_of_the_Crime_of_Genocide https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_...