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> if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Yes? So far Apple hasn't had any troub

> if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Yes? So far Apple hasn't had any trouble making that choice for you, letting Epic offer another option is not equivalent to taking away choices. You might as well be complaining that Epic or Apple's EULA is limiting your decision. It's a you problem.

nerdjon 3y ago
Epic was the one that made choices that pushed apple to remove Fortnite. Let's not twist history and say that Apple just suddenly chose to remove Fortnite. Epic made certain choices likely knowing what the outcome would be. Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose. If I want to play Fortnite on my iPhone I will have no choice but to use the store. So I have the choice I want to make "Do I want to play Fortnite" and then the choice I am forced to make by the developers "Do I want to download the Epic store". That is removing choice from me.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  I'm surprised that the iPhone is over 10 years old now and you still think all software is obligated to get distributed via the App Store. If you only download software from the App Store, that's your choice - the world does not revolve around you or Apple's decisions though. Look on Mac - you don't have a choice if you want to play Java Minecraft through the App Store. If you don't sideload, that "choice" has already been made for you. And it's certainly not because Mojang is going out of their way to spite Apple fans. Specifically, professionals avoid the App Store because it has been a bad deal on every platform it's appeared. You want your choice? Your choice is to not use that software at all, and find an alternative. That's what you decide when you die by the sword of a third-party's whims.
- afavour 3y ago
  > Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose Yes and no. I get what you’re saying. But Apple demanding a 30% cut is just as much of a reason for your choice being removed. If they didn’t demand that then Epic wouldn’t have done anything. Neither party is innocent here, they’re both multinational tech giants fighting over our money.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    > Neither party is innocent here, they’re both multinational tech giants fighting over our money. That is true, people seem to think that just because in this particular case I prefer the way that Apple is doing this as a user it means that I necessarily agree with everything that Apple is doing or that they are saints or whatever. My problem here is that so much of this is focused on Developer choice, but no one is talking about user choice. Or developer somehow twist this into a thing that users care at all about. When most really don't. Is Apple's cut high? Sure. But it is lines up with the rest of the game industry with Steam, Consoles, etc. There is an important part of this that I feel like developers are missing, I feel like they think that every user will just go over and give them the same amount of money where for me I will just not give them my money. Which I fully realize I have the choice to do that and not give them money. And that is great. But That still means I cannot make the choice to use something I want without also being forced to make a decision that I don't want to make (use an alternative store). I fully realize that I am not being forced to download Fortnite. But my concern is that as this becomes more and more normalized that the idea that I could only get my budgeting app, instagram, banking apps, or whatever other thing that I am used to using now only outside of the App Store becomes a reality. And again this isn hypothetical, look at Epic with Fortnite. Apps like Fortnite, Facebook, and others will be the gateway app that normalizes other apps not shipping through the App Store. Since they will already be on your phone.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Hopefully, it will motivate Apple to make the App Store more competitive. The existence of third-party options will really make them work to make that 30% fee look attractive. On the PC gaming side, Valve regularly gets developers to abandon their own storefronts and pay their fee instead. Valve has huge market penetration, offers App Store-like services and has invested in a truly feature-complete platform. Because they have all this, publishers like EA and Ubisoft almost have no choice if they want to compete. Their own storefronts completely failed, despite continued investment and even the occasional attractive deal/title. I really do hope Apple is afraid of these consequences. They will be forced to differentiate themselves in more meaningful ways, and move past their obsession with service revenue and distribution control. If users are able to get a better experience by avoiding the App Store, I'd say that's Mission Success for the DMA.
- valicord 3y ago
  > So I have the choice I want to make "Do I want to play Fortnite" and then the choice I am forced to make by the developers "Do I want to download the Epic store". > That is removing choice from me. Would you mind elaborating on this? Which choice do you have today regarding Fortnite on iOS that would be removed if Epic had its own iOS store?
- stale2002 3y ago
  > that pushed apple to remove Fortnite. There was no law that forced Apple to remove fortnight. They could have just left it on the store.

nerdjon 3y ago

Epic was the one that made choices that pushed apple to remove Fortnite. Let's not twist history and say that Apple just suddenly chose to remove Fortnite. Epic made certain choices likely knowing what the outcome would be. Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose. If I want to play Fortnite on my iPhone I will have no choice but to use the store. So I have the choice I want to make "Do I want to play Fortnite" and then the choice I am forced to make by the developers "Do I want to download the Epic store". That is removing choice from me.

smoldesu 3y ago
I'm surprised that the iPhone is over 10 years old now and you still think all software is obligated to get distributed via the App Store. If you only download software from the App Store, that's your choice - the world does not revolve around you or Apple's decisions though. Look on Mac - you don't have a choice if you want to play Java Minecraft through the App Store. If you don't sideload, that "choice" has already been made for you. And it's certainly not because Mojang is going out of their way to spite Apple fans. Specifically, professionals avoid the App Store because it has been a bad deal on every platform it's appeared. You want your choice? Your choice is to not use that software at all, and find an alternative. That's what you decide when you die by the sword of a third-party's whims.
afavour 3y ago
> Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose Yes and no. I get what you’re saying. But Apple demanding a 30% cut is just as much of a reason for your choice being removed. If they didn’t demand that then Epic wouldn’t have done anything. Neither party is innocent here, they’re both multinational tech giants fighting over our money.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  > Neither party is innocent here, they’re both multinational tech giants fighting over our money. That is true, people seem to think that just because in this particular case I prefer the way that Apple is doing this as a user it means that I necessarily agree with everything that Apple is doing or that they are saints or whatever. My problem here is that so much of this is focused on Developer choice, but no one is talking about user choice. Or developer somehow twist this into a thing that users care at all about. When most really don't. Is Apple's cut high? Sure. But it is lines up with the rest of the game industry with Steam, Consoles, etc. There is an important part of this that I feel like developers are missing, I feel like they think that every user will just go over and give them the same amount of money where for me I will just not give them my money. Which I fully realize I have the choice to do that and not give them money. And that is great. But That still means I cannot make the choice to use something I want without also being forced to make a decision that I don't want to make (use an alternative store). I fully realize that I am not being forced to download Fortnite. But my concern is that as this becomes more and more normalized that the idea that I could only get my budgeting app, instagram, banking apps, or whatever other thing that I am used to using now only outside of the App Store becomes a reality. And again this isn hypothetical, look at Epic with Fortnite. Apps like Fortnite, Facebook, and others will be the gateway app that normalizes other apps not shipping through the App Store. Since they will already be on your phone.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Hopefully, it will motivate Apple to make the App Store more competitive. The existence of third-party options will really make them work to make that 30% fee look attractive. On the PC gaming side, Valve regularly gets developers to abandon their own storefronts and pay their fee instead. Valve has huge market penetration, offers App Store-like services and has invested in a truly feature-complete platform. Because they have all this, publishers like EA and Ubisoft almost have no choice if they want to compete. Their own storefronts completely failed, despite continued investment and even the occasional attractive deal/title. I really do hope Apple is afraid of these consequences. They will be forced to differentiate themselves in more meaningful ways, and move past their obsession with service revenue and distribution control. If users are able to get a better experience by avoiding the App Store, I'd say that's Mission Success for the DMA.
valicord 3y ago
> So I have the choice I want to make "Do I want to play Fortnite" and then the choice I am forced to make by the developers "Do I want to download the Epic store". > That is removing choice from me. Would you mind elaborating on this? Which choice do you have today regarding Fortnite on iOS that would be removed if Epic had its own iOS store?
stale2002 3y ago
> that pushed apple to remove Fortnite. There was no law that forced Apple to remove fortnight. They could have just left it on the store.