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> But then later on, seems to ignore the safe alternatives and commits a non-sequitur I think it's possible to read the argument in the way that make sense. I

> But then later on, seems to ignore the safe alternatives and commits a non-sequitur I think it's possible to read the argument in the way that make sense. I don't think that Hurb is making the point here that Rust code uses more unsafe code pacifically "because" the the tree-base dynamic data structures restrictions. It seems that he took this simply as an illustration of a larger point. The point he is making is that programming language safety is always a trade-off. Rust and Java are making different trade-offs which results in a different level/kind of safety. We should also note, even if there are "safe" alternatives in rust, it doesn't mean those alternative are viable in term of code complexity, performance, cache behavior etc... etc... So the existence of safe alternative doesn't negate the need to use unsafe if one doesn't like the trade-off those safe alternatives imply. I don't think it's a particularly big problem that more part of rust are unsafe vs Java, and probably reflect rust focused on native performance more than anything else. But for the purpose the Hurb conversation here, this fact is important to note.

burntsushi 3y ago
It's definitely a trade off. But Sutter is extremely selective in the analysis put forward on that trade off. Selective enough that I find the wording pretty misleading overall. And that particular paragraph is still a non-sequitur. The language used is pretty clearly "because foo, bar happened." Emphasis mine: > However, this same feature also requires Rust programs to use unsafe code more often to represent common data structures that do not require unsafe code to represent in other MSLs such as C# or Java, and so 30% to 50% of Rust crates use unsafe code, compared for example to 25% of Java libraries. This isn't a carefully considered statement about trade offs. This is sloppy reasoning. For example, if the reality were that 99% of that `unsafe` code were just FFI interactions with programming languages that are memory unsafe by default, then that would kind of undercut the entire point here. That is, it wouldn't really be Rust's fault. It would be the fact that we've lived in a memory unsafe hegemony in systems languages for the last several decades. That's just reality. Of course, I'm sure it isn't 99%. But I'm also sure it isn't 1% either. The reality is so much more interesting than "30%-50% of all crates have `unsafe` in them." And that reality could very well undercut the entire point Sutter is making in this part of the article.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  perhaps you should try the steelman technique rather than interpreting his words through a lense of negativity.
  - burntsushi 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - burntsushi 3y ago
        "do as I say, not as I do"

burntsushi 3y ago

It's definitely a trade off. But Sutter is extremely selective in the analysis put forward on that trade off. Selective enough that I find the wording pretty misleading overall. And that particular paragraph is still a non-sequitur. The language used is pretty clearly "because foo, bar happened." Emphasis mine: > However, this same feature also requires Rust programs to use unsafe code more often to represent common data structures that do not require unsafe code to represent in other MSLs such as C# or Java, and so 30% to 50% of Rust crates use unsafe code, compared for example to 25% of Java libraries. This isn't a carefully considered statement about trade offs. This is sloppy reasoning. For example, if the reality were that 99% of that `unsafe` code were just FFI interactions with programming languages that are memory unsafe by default, then that would kind of undercut the entire point here. That is, it wouldn't really be Rust's fault. It would be the fact that we've lived in a memory unsafe hegemony in systems languages for the last several decades. That's just reality. Of course, I'm sure it isn't 99%. But I'm also sure it isn't 1% either. The reality is so much more interesting than "30%-50% of all crates have `unsafe` in them." And that reality could very well undercut the entire point Sutter is making in this part of the article.

PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
perhaps you should try the steelman technique rather than interpreting his words through a lense of negativity.
- burntsushi 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - burntsushi 3y ago
      "do as I say, not as I do"