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> ASCII has a field delimiter character. Where's the key on my keyboard yo make one? The point of text-based formats is that you can edit them in a text edito

> ASCII has a field delimiter character. Where's the key on my keyboard yo make one? The point of text-based formats is that you can edit them in a text editor by hand trivially, if typing the character is nontrivial, then it entirely defeats the point (that's also why USV ads very little value IMHO).

tambourine_man 3y ago
What’s the key to enter the euro symbol? That means you can’t use it in a text editor? There is no perfect solution, but I’d rather open a text file in a decent editor than having to deal with the escaping hell that is CSV. They could have chosen the pipe character “|” at least, but the comma is the thousand separator in many languages (number formatting is kind of important for tabular data, if you ask me) and also, you know, general prose.
- MaBu 3y ago
  >What’s the key to enter the euro symbol? That means you can’t use it in a text editor? Alt gr+E? Like it's shown on the keyboard.
  - tambourine_man 3y ago
    Not on a US keyboard layout. The point is that we insert characters that aren’t written on the keyboard keys with some regularity, like ©, ®, ™, etc
    - couchand 3y ago
      Well some of us do. There's this interesting effect where many people perceive the limitations on their current tools to be equivalent to limitations on their abstract abilities. If they don't know how to do it, it's impossible.
      - shawnz 3y ago
        I think that's exactly the point that the parent poster is trying to make by example? Just because we don't have good tooling today for using ASCII delimiter characters, doesn't mean it's impossible -- just like typing the euro symbol on an american keyboard
        couchand 3y ago
        Oh yes certainly. And I think that when you're deep into creation it can be really really hard to remember that experience, and so recently I'm trying to find ways to help pull back the curtain for folks.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        It doesn't mean it's impossible, but it's definitely cumbersome. Any non English people who has had to type in their native language from an american keyboard can tell you.
  - usr1106 3y ago
    Except that not all keyboards have an AltGr key. European ones tend to have one. US keyboards don't. Not sure about British. Are they different from US?
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > What’s the key to enter the euro symbol? There's one on French keyboards actually! And it was there even before we got euro coins in our hands (I know this because I'm still using my first (mechanical) keyboard that I got with my first own PC in 2001: and there is a “€” symbol on it)
  - wiml 3y ago
    There's also the generic currency symbol, ¤, which I think is on some keyboard layouts pre-Euro.
    - andyferris 3y ago
      Ooh is that what that is? TIL
    - mongol 3y ago
      That is an underappreciated gem. It should find more use!
  - BlueTemplar 3y ago
    Mandatory plug of new Azerty : https://norme-azerty.fr/en/ https://norme-azerty.fr/en/
zzo38computer 3y ago
Control underscore is the unit separator character. (Some editors may require you to escape that character, though.)
AdamH12113 3y ago
You can actually type a bunch of ASCII control characters very easily on a keyboard. Look at an ASCII table with 32 characters per column (I like this one[1]). The key combo for a control character is Ctrl + the letter on the same row as the control character. So: BELL Ctrl-G RECORD SEPARATOR Ctrl-^ UNIT SEPARATOR Ctrl-_ ESCAPE Ctrl-[ You can think of the Ctrl key as clearing the two most-significant bits of the letter's ASCII code. Not all key combos are supported in all environments. Notepad++ doesn't support Ctrl-] (GROUP SEPARATOR) at all, but does support e.g. SHIFT OUT as Ctrl-Shift-N, for instance. The Windows CMD.EXE command line supports many combinations (but not UNIT SEPARATOR, unfortunately), displaying them as e.g. ^[ or ^G in the console. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/ASCII-Table-wide.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/ASCII-Ta...
- serial_dev 3y ago
  If I need a table or Google to figure out how to type something, that's not "very easily" If you need to train your employees on that, it's not "very easily". "Very easily" is when I can take any family member who's seen a computer in their life, give them a keyboard and they can figure it out on their own without Google in 2 seconds (like csv).
  - AdamH12113 3y ago
    What I mean is that a simple key combination is easier to use than an Alt code or having to copy and paste from another document. The ASCII table stuff is just fun trivia. "Press Ctrl-_ to insert a column separator" isn't any harder than "Press Ctrl-S to save" or "Press Ctrl-T to open a new browser tab". It's definitely easier than letting your hypothetical family member reinvent character escapes on their own the moment they encounter an address that has an extra comma in it. :-)
    - sumergomonstro 3y ago
      An editor could easily have an Insert Special Character menu item.

tambourine_man 3y ago

What’s the key to enter the euro symbol? That means you can’t use it in a text editor? There is no perfect solution, but I’d rather open a text file in a decent editor than having to deal with the escaping hell that is CSV. They could have chosen the pipe character “|” at least, but the comma is the thousand separator in many languages (number formatting is kind of important for tabular data, if you ask me) and also, you know, general prose.

MaBu 3y ago
>What’s the key to enter the euro symbol? That means you can’t use it in a text editor? Alt gr+E? Like it's shown on the keyboard.
- tambourine_man 3y ago
  Not on a US keyboard layout. The point is that we insert characters that aren’t written on the keyboard keys with some regularity, like ©, ®, ™, etc
  - couchand 3y ago
    Well some of us do. There's this interesting effect where many people perceive the limitations on their current tools to be equivalent to limitations on their abstract abilities. If they don't know how to do it, it's impossible.
    - shawnz 3y ago
      I think that's exactly the point that the parent poster is trying to make by example? Just because we don't have good tooling today for using ASCII delimiter characters, doesn't mean it's impossible -- just like typing the euro symbol on an american keyboard
      - couchand 3y ago
        Oh yes certainly. And I think that when you're deep into creation it can be really really hard to remember that experience, and so recently I'm trying to find ways to help pull back the curtain for folks.
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        It doesn't mean it's impossible, but it's definitely cumbersome. Any non English people who has had to type in their native language from an american keyboard can tell you.
- usr1106 3y ago
  Except that not all keyboards have an AltGr key. European ones tend to have one. US keyboards don't. Not sure about British. Are they different from US?
littlestymaar 3y ago
> What’s the key to enter the euro symbol? There's one on French keyboards actually! And it was there even before we got euro coins in our hands (I know this because I'm still using my first (mechanical) keyboard that I got with my first own PC in 2001: and there is a “€” symbol on it)
- wiml 3y ago
  There's also the generic currency symbol, ¤, which I think is on some keyboard layouts pre-Euro.
  - andyferris 3y ago
    Ooh is that what that is? TIL
  - mongol 3y ago
    That is an underappreciated gem. It should find more use!
- BlueTemplar 3y ago
  Mandatory plug of new Azerty : https://norme-azerty.fr/en/ https://norme-azerty.fr/en/

zzo38computer 3y ago

Control underscore is the unit separator character. (Some editors may require you to escape that character, though.)

AdamH12113 3y ago

You can actually type a bunch of ASCII control characters very easily on a keyboard. Look at an ASCII table with 32 characters per column (I like this one[1]). The key combo for a control character is Ctrl + the letter on the same row as the control character. So: BELL Ctrl-G RECORD SEPARATOR Ctrl-^ UNIT SEPARATOR Ctrl-_ ESCAPE Ctrl-[ You can think of the Ctrl key as clearing the two most-significant bits of the letter's ASCII code. Not all key combos are supported in all environments. Notepad++ doesn't support Ctrl-] (GROUP SEPARATOR) at all, but does support e.g. SHIFT OUT as Ctrl-Shift-N, for instance. The Windows CMD.EXE command line supports many combinations (but not UNIT SEPARATOR, unfortunately), displaying them as e.g. ^[ or ^G in the console. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/ASCII-Table-wide.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/ASCII-Ta...

serial_dev 3y ago
If I need a table or Google to figure out how to type something, that's not "very easily" If you need to train your employees on that, it's not "very easily". "Very easily" is when I can take any family member who's seen a computer in their life, give them a keyboard and they can figure it out on their own without Google in 2 seconds (like csv).
- AdamH12113 3y ago
  What I mean is that a simple key combination is easier to use than an Alt code or having to copy and paste from another document. The ASCII table stuff is just fun trivia. "Press Ctrl-_ to insert a column separator" isn't any harder than "Press Ctrl-S to save" or "Press Ctrl-T to open a new browser tab". It's definitely easier than letting your hypothetical family member reinvent character escapes on their own the moment they encounter an address that has an extra comma in it. :-)
  - sumergomonstro 3y ago
    An editor could easily have an Insert Special Character menu item.