6 ms·

I find it interesting that some pro-Wallet garden folks argument is: "Don't like Apple? Don't buy it then." Well I can use the same argument for apps. "Don't

by hu3 3y ago

I find it interesting that some pro-Wallet garden folks argument is: "Don't like Apple? Don't buy it then." Well I can use the same argument for apps. "Don't like this third party app store or their dark patterns? Don't buy it then." Vote with your wallet, goes both ways. Or, hear me out, let's regulate so neither Apple nor other vendors can abuse their customers. And it's not like Apple's protection is effective. AppStore is full of subscription scams.

generalizations 3y ago
> Vote with your wallet, goes both ways. So just buy an android. Vote with your wallet! Show Apple their walled garden isn't what people want.
- hu3 3y ago
  Yes I do prefer Android because I like being treated as an adult. So I already do that. Apple is not currently a choice given that requirement but having more choices is a win on my book so you go EU!
  - generalizations 3y ago
    Some people like having the choice of a curated system, and that requires a walled garden. You're removing choices, not adding them.
    - hu3 3y ago
      That's a false dichotomy. I can have the coice of alternative apps stores AND still enjoy a curated wallet garden. How do I know it works? Android is precisely like that. You see Android users also like the choice of a curated system. Choice being the important word here.
      - generalizations 3y ago
        Um. Seems like even in this general thread, the Android ecosystem is considered worse than the Apple walled garden. That's a weird claim to make.
        hu3 3y ago
        I don't believe I made that claim. On the contrary.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        Not everyone who purchases a phone is the end user. If I'm buying a device for my organization or for a child, I might not want the device to enable that choice at runtime. I want to make the choice at the time of purchase.
        hu3 3y ago
        Don't worry. Restricting what's allowed in a company owned iPhone already exists throughout MDM. And that won't change because it's not your device after all. https://it-training.apple.com/tutorials/deployment/dm005 https://it-training.apple.com/tutorials/deployment/dm005
        kube-system 3y ago
        I'm aware of MDMs, I administer one. That 50% addresses my comment, but also, MDMs are third party solutions. Regardless, my point is that opinionatedness is a feature that some people buy, even if many people on this forum don't. e.g. people might prefer to eat at a nice prix fixe restaurant instead of the Cheesecake Factory.
    - stale2002 3y ago
      > You're removing choices, not adding them. Just don't install those other apps then. It's the same exact argument that you made! The same one! So no, your choice is not being removed, because in your own words, using your own argument, you can just not install those other apps.
      - generalizations 3y ago
        "Curated system", not curated apps. Words matter and I chose those for a reason. The "gotcha" you attempted just makes it clear that you have no idea why the walled garden creates an environment that is more attractive to the average user.
        fsflover 3y ago
        > the walled garden creates an environment that is more attractive to the average user. Any studies confirming this, or is it just your opinion? In my experience, nobody who owns an iPhone knows about the walled garden (among non-tech people at least).
        generalizations 3y ago
        > studies confirming this Market share is pretty easy to look up? iPhones are massively popular, and have the majority market share in the US. > nobody who owns an iPhone knows about the walled garden That's-a bingo! Exactly. Because it just works, because Apple has tight control over the pipeline. They don't need to know and it seems like tech people don't appreciate the degree to which a trustworthy, mostly-idiot-proof appliance is incredibly valuable to the average user. Choosing between stores and warnings about trojans in security apps are not things that most users care about or want to think about. iPhones are great because the user can have little idea what they're doing, and still be pretty sure they won't screw it up. As I've said elsewhere, I run void linux on my personal thinkpads because I customize everything. But that's not for everyone.
        fsflover 3y ago
- fsflover 3y ago
  Is this what people want? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261
vultour 3y ago
The problem is that the less-tech-literate people don't recognize the dark patterns. I like iPhones because it means I don't have to worry about my parents' phones. I am not looking forward to the day when all their contacts and pictures are siphoned off because they downloaded the required "ebook reader" via the big download button on a random website.
- jamil7 3y ago
  Can you explain how you believe the App Store prevents contacts and pictures being siphoned off currently?
  - its_ethan 3y ago
    Apps in the App store have to use a prompt to get confirmation that they are able to view and access certain things, like your photo library. Breaking down the walled garden of the App Store would be moving in the direction of a world where the prompts/ requests for access that prevent (or reduce the odds of) data being taken/stolen is higher. If you can download a non-compliant app from any random website you might visit, you can bet your ass the 65+ population is going to end up downloading a bunch of malicious apps.
    - jamil7 3y ago
      The prompt you're talking about is a part of the operating system's security and privacy model, this has nothing to do with the App Store or the DMA. The DMA is not requiring this to be changed.
      - burnerthrow008 3y ago
        Sure, and if a developer finds a way to bypass that security restriction, Apple no longer has the ability to ban that developer. > The DMA is not requiring this to be changed. Not according to the DMA maximalists on this thread, who believe that you should be able to install any software that does anything it wants.

by hu3 3y ago

generalizations 3y ago

> Vote with your wallet, goes both ways. So just buy an android. Vote with your wallet! Show Apple their walled garden isn't what people want.

hu3 3y ago
Yes I do prefer Android because I like being treated as an adult. So I already do that. Apple is not currently a choice given that requirement but having more choices is a win on my book so you go EU!
- generalizations 3y ago
  Some people like having the choice of a curated system, and that requires a walled garden. You're removing choices, not adding them.
  - hu3 3y ago
    That's a false dichotomy. I can have the coice of alternative apps stores AND still enjoy a curated wallet garden. How do I know it works? Android is precisely like that. You see Android users also like the choice of a curated system. Choice being the important word here.
    - generalizations 3y ago
      Um. Seems like even in this general thread, the Android ecosystem is considered worse than the Apple walled garden. That's a weird claim to make.
      - hu3 3y ago
        I don't believe I made that claim. On the contrary.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      Not everyone who purchases a phone is the end user. If I'm buying a device for my organization or for a child, I might not want the device to enable that choice at runtime. I want to make the choice at the time of purchase.
      - hu3 3y ago
        Don't worry. Restricting what's allowed in a company owned iPhone already exists throughout MDM. And that won't change because it's not your device after all. https://it-training.apple.com/tutorials/deployment/dm005 https://it-training.apple.com/tutorials/deployment/dm005
        kube-system 3y ago
        I'm aware of MDMs, I administer one. That 50% addresses my comment, but also, MDMs are third party solutions. Regardless, my point is that opinionatedness is a feature that some people buy, even if many people on this forum don't. e.g. people might prefer to eat at a nice prix fixe restaurant instead of the Cheesecake Factory.
  - stale2002 3y ago
    > You're removing choices, not adding them. Just don't install those other apps then. It's the same exact argument that you made! The same one! So no, your choice is not being removed, because in your own words, using your own argument, you can just not install those other apps.
    - generalizations 3y ago
      "Curated system", not curated apps. Words matter and I chose those for a reason. The "gotcha" you attempted just makes it clear that you have no idea why the walled garden creates an environment that is more attractive to the average user.
      - fsflover 3y ago
        > the walled garden creates an environment that is more attractive to the average user. Any studies confirming this, or is it just your opinion? In my experience, nobody who owns an iPhone knows about the walled garden (among non-tech people at least).
        generalizations 3y ago
        > studies confirming this Market share is pretty easy to look up? iPhones are massively popular, and have the majority market share in the US. > nobody who owns an iPhone knows about the walled garden That's-a bingo! Exactly. Because it just works, because Apple has tight control over the pipeline. They don't need to know and it seems like tech people don't appreciate the degree to which a trustworthy, mostly-idiot-proof appliance is incredibly valuable to the average user. Choosing between stores and warnings about trojans in security apps are not things that most users care about or want to think about. iPhones are great because the user can have little idea what they're doing, and still be pretty sure they won't screw it up. As I've said elsewhere, I run void linux on my personal thinkpads because I customize everything. But that's not for everyone.
        fsflover 3y ago
fsflover 3y ago
Is this what people want? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261

vultour 3y ago

The problem is that the less-tech-literate people don't recognize the dark patterns. I like iPhones because it means I don't have to worry about my parents' phones. I am not looking forward to the day when all their contacts and pictures are siphoned off because they downloaded the required "ebook reader" via the big download button on a random website.

jamil7 3y ago
Can you explain how you believe the App Store prevents contacts and pictures being siphoned off currently?
- its_ethan 3y ago
  Apps in the App store have to use a prompt to get confirmation that they are able to view and access certain things, like your photo library. Breaking down the walled garden of the App Store would be moving in the direction of a world where the prompts/ requests for access that prevent (or reduce the odds of) data being taken/stolen is higher. If you can download a non-compliant app from any random website you might visit, you can bet your ass the 65+ population is going to end up downloading a bunch of malicious apps.
  - jamil7 3y ago
    The prompt you're talking about is a part of the operating system's security and privacy model, this has nothing to do with the App Store or the DMA. The DMA is not requiring this to be changed.
    - burnerthrow008 3y ago
      Sure, and if a developer finds a way to bypass that security restriction, Apple no longer has the ability to ban that developer. > The DMA is not requiring this to be changed. Not according to the DMA maximalists on this thread, who believe that you should be able to install any software that does anything it wants.