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> so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? How many users actually understand the issues

> so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand why they can't subscribe to Netflix through the iOS app? How many know what Apple's cut even is? The government has all kinds of regulation in what my utility providers can and can't do, in ways I'm not fully clued into. I see this as similar. > I have less control over my phone, not more. > Developers I also hope quickly realize that if they try to push me to subscribe outside of the App Store they will get $0 from me instead of 70%. To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud.

nerdjon 3y ago
> How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand why they can't subscribe to Netflix through the iOS app? How many know what Apple's cut even is? The iPhone isn't a new platform though. I feel like people well understand what they can and cannot download through the App Store by this point. While I do completely agree that Apple needs to loosen the control on things like porn apps, that is a different issue. As far as Netflix, that is ultimately Netflix choice. They could allow you to subscribe through the App Store if they really wanted. As far as Apple's cut. I mean I don't ask my grocery store what their cut is, or target, or any other store. I don't ask what Steam's cut is, or Xbox, or Playstation, even though all 3 of those are similar cuts. As a user, that number really doesn't mean anything to me. > To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud. That is the problem, how free am I really to ignore it if the only way to get by budget app or whatever other app that I have come to rely on is suddenly a different store or they just don't want me to subscribe through the App Store anymore. This isn't hypothetical, if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Instead of being able to choose if I want to play Fortnite or not, I instead am choosing if I care enough to download an alliterative store. Why is that ok? Instead Epic is making the choice for me, and it is up to me to decide if I care enough. And then it becomes normalized and just accepted because most users who don't understand the risks of alternative stores, just go with it.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  > if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Yes? So far Apple hasn't had any trouble making that choice for you, letting Epic offer another option is not equivalent to taking away choices. You might as well be complaining that Epic or Apple's EULA is limiting your decision. It's a you problem.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    Epic was the one that made choices that pushed apple to remove Fortnite. Let's not twist history and say that Apple just suddenly chose to remove Fortnite. Epic made certain choices likely knowing what the outcome would be. Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose. If I want to play Fortnite on my iPhone I will have no choice but to use the store. So I have the choice I want to make "Do I want to play Fortnite" and then the choice I am forced to make by the developers "Do I want to download the Epic store". That is removing choice from me.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      I'm surprised that the iPhone is over 10 years old now and you still think all software is obligated to get distributed via the App Store. If you only download software from the App Store, that's your choice - the world does not revolve around you or Apple's decisions though. Look on Mac - you don't have a choice if you want to play Java Minecraft through the App Store. If you don't sideload, that "choice" has already been made for you. And it's certainly not because Mojang is going out of their way to spite Apple fans. Specifically, professionals avoid the App Store because it has been a bad deal on every platform it's appeared. You want your choice? Your choice is to not use that software at all, and find an alternative. That's what you decide when you die by the sword of a third-party's whims.
    - afavour 3y ago
      > Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose Yes and no. I get what you’re saying. But Apple demanding a 30% cut is just as much of a reason for your choice being removed. If they didn’t demand that then Epic wouldn’t have done anything. Neither party is innocent here, they’re both multinational tech giants fighting over our money.
generalizations 3y ago
Except that the free market has already shown that users prefer the walled garden, because they keep buying iPhones. If you don't like the App Store limitation, then you're free to go buy an Android.
- HideousKojima 3y ago
  >Except that the free market has already shown that users prefer the walled garden, because they keep buying iPhones. That's assuming they're buying iPhones because of the walled garden and not because of other reasons.
  - generalizations 3y ago
    Yes, and I think that the benefits gained by the walled garden are a big part of the iPhone's popularity. It's simple, it works, the scams are kept to a minimum, and it's a consistent, well-integrated experience. Those are all true of iPhones because of the walled garden; Android can't boast any of that.
    - HideousKojima 3y ago
      99% of Android users never install an app from outside the app store either, Apple just does a better job filtering scams etc. out of their app store. If Google did a better job of curation it would be a comparable experience for the overwhelming majority of users. The ability to install 3rd party apps has effectively zero effect on how well Apple curates their official app store.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        > Apple just does a better job filtering scams etc. out of their app store. Well, sometimes: https://www.pcmag.com/news/beware-theres-a-fake-lastpass-app-on-apples-app-store https://www.pcmag.com/news/beware-theres-a-fake-lastpass-app... Just make sure that Grandma knows any of her security apps could be a Trojan, and she should be safe.
      - 3y ago
sbuk 3y ago
If it’s enforced by regulations, by definition it’s no longer a “free” market. It’s a regulated one.
- EMIRELADERO 3y ago
  The regulations made the smartphone/mobile OS market non-free in order to make the "apps for <insert OS name here>" market free.
  - sbuk 3y ago
    Just no. You can twist it all you want. The app market in the EU is no longer a free market in any sense.
- mthoms 3y ago
  >If it’s enforced by regulations, by definition it’s no longer a “free” market. It’s a regulated one. By that definition there are no free markets nearly anywhere (save for illegal markets). At least not in modern, well-functioning economies. (Attention pedants: I said nearly)
nucleardog 3y ago
> To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud. This only really creates no impact to users if Apple were to force all apps to also be listed in their App Store. If, e.g., Facebook were to decide they don’t like existing App Store policies and start their own store and only list their apps there, for a large portion of people using Facebook’s store would effectively be a requirement (in many places WhatsApp is a requirement). What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? You don’t have a choice there either. (Besides returning the hardware if you have the option.) I’m with the GP here. I don’t own any other Apple hardware, but bought my phone (after a long line of Android hardware starting from the original ADP1) specifically to not have to deal with any of this. I don’t have the time and energy to deal with any of this anymore. I have paid a premium to have these choices taken away from me and the decisions made for me. Sorry I’m ruining the world, but if people want a phone they can install arbitrary binaries on I really don’t understand why they can’t just go buy an Android. As you say, free markets… if this _actually_ mattered to people then Apple should take a hit in the market and either change their behavior or disappear entirely. Yet here we are.
- valicord 3y ago
  > What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? You don’t have a choice there either. (Besides returning the hardware if you have the option.) Surely that's more choice than if the app for some piece of hardware you bought is not on iOS at all because Apple refuses to approve it?
- orangecat 3y ago
  What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? What happens if the app is only available for iOS? What happens when all your friends use iMessage and Facetime? Apple isn't saving us from platform lock-in; they're benefiting hugely from it. I don’t own any other Apple hardware, but bought my phone (after a long line of Android hardware starting from the original ADP1) specifically to not have to deal with any of this. I don’t have the time and energy to deal with any of this anymore. What is "this"? My Android phone works fine with zero maintenance, but when I occasionally want to do hacky things with it I can.

nerdjon 3y ago

> How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand why they can't subscribe to Netflix through the iOS app? How many know what Apple's cut even is? The iPhone isn't a new platform though. I feel like people well understand what they can and cannot download through the App Store by this point. While I do completely agree that Apple needs to loosen the control on things like porn apps, that is a different issue. As far as Netflix, that is ultimately Netflix choice. They could allow you to subscribe through the App Store if they really wanted. As far as Apple's cut. I mean I don't ask my grocery store what their cut is, or target, or any other store. I don't ask what Steam's cut is, or Xbox, or Playstation, even though all 3 of those are similar cuts. As a user, that number really doesn't mean anything to me. > To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud. That is the problem, how free am I really to ignore it if the only way to get by budget app or whatever other app that I have come to rely on is suddenly a different store or they just don't want me to subscribe through the App Store anymore. This isn't hypothetical, if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Instead of being able to choose if I want to play Fortnite or not, I instead am choosing if I care enough to download an alliterative store. Why is that ok? Instead Epic is making the choice for me, and it is up to me to decide if I care enough. And then it becomes normalized and just accepted because most users who don't understand the risks of alternative stores, just go with it.

smoldesu 3y ago
> if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Yes? So far Apple hasn't had any trouble making that choice for you, letting Epic offer another option is not equivalent to taking away choices. You might as well be complaining that Epic or Apple's EULA is limiting your decision. It's a you problem.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  Epic was the one that made choices that pushed apple to remove Fortnite. Let's not twist history and say that Apple just suddenly chose to remove Fortnite. Epic made certain choices likely knowing what the outcome would be. Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose. If I want to play Fortnite on my iPhone I will have no choice but to use the store. So I have the choice I want to make "Do I want to play Fortnite" and then the choice I am forced to make by the developers "Do I want to download the Epic store". That is removing choice from me.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    I'm surprised that the iPhone is over 10 years old now and you still think all software is obligated to get distributed via the App Store. If you only download software from the App Store, that's your choice - the world does not revolve around you or Apple's decisions though. Look on Mac - you don't have a choice if you want to play Java Minecraft through the App Store. If you don't sideload, that "choice" has already been made for you. And it's certainly not because Mojang is going out of their way to spite Apple fans. Specifically, professionals avoid the App Store because it has been a bad deal on every platform it's appeared. You want your choice? Your choice is to not use that software at all, and find an alternative. That's what you decide when you die by the sword of a third-party's whims.
  - afavour 3y ago
    > Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose Yes and no. I get what you’re saying. But Apple demanding a 30% cut is just as much of a reason for your choice being removed. If they didn’t demand that then Epic wouldn’t have done anything. Neither party is innocent here, they’re both multinational tech giants fighting over our money.

generalizations 3y ago

Except that the free market has already shown that users prefer the walled garden, because they keep buying iPhones. If you don't like the App Store limitation, then you're free to go buy an Android.

HideousKojima 3y ago
>Except that the free market has already shown that users prefer the walled garden, because they keep buying iPhones. That's assuming they're buying iPhones because of the walled garden and not because of other reasons.
- generalizations 3y ago
  Yes, and I think that the benefits gained by the walled garden are a big part of the iPhone's popularity. It's simple, it works, the scams are kept to a minimum, and it's a consistent, well-integrated experience. Those are all true of iPhones because of the walled garden; Android can't boast any of that.
  - HideousKojima 3y ago
    99% of Android users never install an app from outside the app store either, Apple just does a better job filtering scams etc. out of their app store. If Google did a better job of curation it would be a comparable experience for the overwhelming majority of users. The ability to install 3rd party apps has effectively zero effect on how well Apple curates their official app store.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > Apple just does a better job filtering scams etc. out of their app store. Well, sometimes: https://www.pcmag.com/news/beware-theres-a-fake-lastpass-app-on-apples-app-store https://www.pcmag.com/news/beware-theres-a-fake-lastpass-app... Just make sure that Grandma knows any of her security apps could be a Trojan, and she should be safe.
    - 3y ago

sbuk 3y ago

If it’s enforced by regulations, by definition it’s no longer a “free” market. It’s a regulated one.

EMIRELADERO 3y ago
The regulations made the smartphone/mobile OS market non-free in order to make the "apps for <insert OS name here>" market free.
- sbuk 3y ago
  Just no. You can twist it all you want. The app market in the EU is no longer a free market in any sense.
mthoms 3y ago
>If it’s enforced by regulations, by definition it’s no longer a “free” market. It’s a regulated one. By that definition there are no free markets nearly anywhere (save for illegal markets). At least not in modern, well-functioning economies. (Attention pedants: I said nearly)

nucleardog 3y ago

> To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud. This only really creates no impact to users if Apple were to force all apps to also be listed in their App Store. If, e.g., Facebook were to decide they don’t like existing App Store policies and start their own store and only list their apps there, for a large portion of people using Facebook’s store would effectively be a requirement (in many places WhatsApp is a requirement). What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? You don’t have a choice there either. (Besides returning the hardware if you have the option.) I’m with the GP here. I don’t own any other Apple hardware, but bought my phone (after a long line of Android hardware starting from the original ADP1) specifically to not have to deal with any of this. I don’t have the time and energy to deal with any of this anymore. I have paid a premium to have these choices taken away from me and the decisions made for me. Sorry I’m ruining the world, but if people want a phone they can install arbitrary binaries on I really don’t understand why they can’t just go buy an Android. As you say, free markets… if this _actually_ mattered to people then Apple should take a hit in the market and either change their behavior or disappear entirely. Yet here we are.

valicord 3y ago
> What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? You don’t have a choice there either. (Besides returning the hardware if you have the option.) Surely that's more choice than if the app for some piece of hardware you bought is not on iOS at all because Apple refuses to approve it?
orangecat 3y ago
What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? What happens if the app is only available for iOS? What happens when all your friends use iMessage and Facetime? Apple isn't saving us from platform lock-in; they're benefiting hugely from it. I don’t own any other Apple hardware, but bought my phone (after a long line of Android hardware starting from the original ADP1) specifically to not have to deal with any of this. I don’t have the time and energy to deal with any of this anymore. What is "this"? My Android phone works fine with zero maintenance, but when I occasionally want to do hacky things with it I can.