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It really bothers me that so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? I am sure some, but I d

It really bothers me that so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? I am sure some, but I doubt it is a significant number. I have said this before here, but I am not looking forward to when this likely eventually comes to the US and as a user I have less control over my phone, not more. The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to stay with the ecosystem. Not being at the mercy of dark patterns that many website still employ when trying to cancel subscriptions or just not reminding me of a yearly subscription about to charge. Apps having no choice but to get money from me by going through the App Store is a benefit to me as a User. Developers I also hope quickly realize that if they try to push me to subscribe outside of the App Store they will get $0 from me instead of 70%. I continue to be worried about the Facebook's and similar companies (we already know Epic is doing it) forcing users outside of the App Store.

afavour 3y ago
> so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand why they can't subscribe to Netflix through the iOS app? How many know what Apple's cut even is? The government has all kinds of regulation in what my utility providers can and can't do, in ways I'm not fully clued into. I see this as similar. > I have less control over my phone, not more. > Developers I also hope quickly realize that if they try to push me to subscribe outside of the App Store they will get $0 from me instead of 70%. To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  > How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand why they can't subscribe to Netflix through the iOS app? How many know what Apple's cut even is? The iPhone isn't a new platform though. I feel like people well understand what they can and cannot download through the App Store by this point. While I do completely agree that Apple needs to loosen the control on things like porn apps, that is a different issue. As far as Netflix, that is ultimately Netflix choice. They could allow you to subscribe through the App Store if they really wanted. As far as Apple's cut. I mean I don't ask my grocery store what their cut is, or target, or any other store. I don't ask what Steam's cut is, or Xbox, or Playstation, even though all 3 of those are similar cuts. As a user, that number really doesn't mean anything to me. > To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud. That is the problem, how free am I really to ignore it if the only way to get by budget app or whatever other app that I have come to rely on is suddenly a different store or they just don't want me to subscribe through the App Store anymore. This isn't hypothetical, if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Instead of being able to choose if I want to play Fortnite or not, I instead am choosing if I care enough to download an alliterative store. Why is that ok? Instead Epic is making the choice for me, and it is up to me to decide if I care enough. And then it becomes normalized and just accepted because most users who don't understand the risks of alternative stores, just go with it.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Yes? So far Apple hasn't had any trouble making that choice for you, letting Epic offer another option is not equivalent to taking away choices. You might as well be complaining that Epic or Apple's EULA is limiting your decision. It's a you problem.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      Epic was the one that made choices that pushed apple to remove Fortnite. Let's not twist history and say that Apple just suddenly chose to remove Fortnite. Epic made certain choices likely knowing what the outcome would be. Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose. If I want to play Fortnite on my iPhone I will have no choice but to use the store. So I have the choice I want to make "Do I want to play Fortnite" and then the choice I am forced to make by the developers "Do I want to download the Epic store". That is removing choice from me.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        I'm surprised that the iPhone is over 10 years old now and you still think all software is obligated to get distributed via the App Store. If you only download software from the App Store, that's your choice - the world does not revolve around you or Apple's decisions though. Look on Mac - you don't have a choice if you want to play Java Minecraft through the App Store. If you don't sideload, that "choice" has already been made for you. And it's certainly not because Mojang is going out of their way to spite Apple fans. Specifically, professionals avoid the App Store because it has been a bad deal on every platform it's appeared. You want your choice? Your choice is to not use that software at all, and find an alternative. That's what you decide when you die by the sword of a third-party's whims.
      - afavour 3y ago
        > Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose Yes and no. I get what you’re saying. But Apple demanding a 30% cut is just as much of a reason for your choice being removed. If they didn’t demand that then Epic wouldn’t have done anything. Neither party is innocent here, they’re both multinational tech giants fighting over our money.
- generalizations 3y ago
  Except that the free market has already shown that users prefer the walled garden, because they keep buying iPhones. If you don't like the App Store limitation, then you're free to go buy an Android.
  - HideousKojima 3y ago
    >Except that the free market has already shown that users prefer the walled garden, because they keep buying iPhones. That's assuming they're buying iPhones because of the walled garden and not because of other reasons.
    - generalizations 3y ago
      Yes, and I think that the benefits gained by the walled garden are a big part of the iPhone's popularity. It's simple, it works, the scams are kept to a minimum, and it's a consistent, well-integrated experience. Those are all true of iPhones because of the walled garden; Android can't boast any of that.
      - HideousKojima 3y ago
        99% of Android users never install an app from outside the app store either, Apple just does a better job filtering scams etc. out of their app store. If Google did a better job of curation it would be a comparable experience for the overwhelming majority of users. The ability to install 3rd party apps has effectively zero effect on how well Apple curates their official app store.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        > Apple just does a better job filtering scams etc. out of their app store. Well, sometimes: https://www.pcmag.com/news/beware-theres-a-fake-lastpass-app-on-apples-app-store https://www.pcmag.com/news/beware-theres-a-fake-lastpass-app... Just make sure that Grandma knows any of her security apps could be a Trojan, and she should be safe.
        3y ago
- sbuk 3y ago
  If it’s enforced by regulations, by definition it’s no longer a “free” market. It’s a regulated one.
  - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
    The regulations made the smartphone/mobile OS market non-free in order to make the "apps for <insert OS name here>" market free.
    - sbuk 3y ago
      Just no. You can twist it all you want. The app market in the EU is no longer a free market in any sense.
  - mthoms 3y ago
    >If it’s enforced by regulations, by definition it’s no longer a “free” market. It’s a regulated one. By that definition there are no free markets nearly anywhere (save for illegal markets). At least not in modern, well-functioning economies. (Attention pedants: I said nearly)
- nucleardog 3y ago
  > To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud. This only really creates no impact to users if Apple were to force all apps to also be listed in their App Store. If, e.g., Facebook were to decide they don’t like existing App Store policies and start their own store and only list their apps there, for a large portion of people using Facebook’s store would effectively be a requirement (in many places WhatsApp is a requirement). What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? You don’t have a choice there either. (Besides returning the hardware if you have the option.) I’m with the GP here. I don’t own any other Apple hardware, but bought my phone (after a long line of Android hardware starting from the original ADP1) specifically to not have to deal with any of this. I don’t have the time and energy to deal with any of this anymore. I have paid a premium to have these choices taken away from me and the decisions made for me. Sorry I’m ruining the world, but if people want a phone they can install arbitrary binaries on I really don’t understand why they can’t just go buy an Android. As you say, free markets… if this _actually_ mattered to people then Apple should take a hit in the market and either change their behavior or disappear entirely. Yet here we are.
  - valicord 3y ago
    > What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? You don’t have a choice there either. (Besides returning the hardware if you have the option.) Surely that's more choice than if the app for some piece of hardware you bought is not on iOS at all because Apple refuses to approve it?
  - orangecat 3y ago
    What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? What happens if the app is only available for iOS? What happens when all your friends use iMessage and Facetime? Apple isn't saving us from platform lock-in; they're benefiting hugely from it. I don’t own any other Apple hardware, but bought my phone (after a long line of Android hardware starting from the original ADP1) specifically to not have to deal with any of this. I don’t have the time and energy to deal with any of this anymore. What is "this"? My Android phone works fine with zero maintenance, but when I occasionally want to do hacky things with it I can.
peoplefromibiza 3y ago
> The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone And that's fine The feature is not for you You can keep using your iPhone as you always did, through the Apple app store But, there's a but: how many users would answer "no" to "would you like to download our app and get a 30% discount for the same exact features"?
- acover 3y ago
  Are they forced to list on the apple app store?
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    Good thing is you're not forced to use them either!
    - acover 3y ago
      Do you consider the usage of oligopolies optional? I could live the life of stallman, but this decision kills an amazing user experience for subscriptions.
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        The European commission has you covered on the oligopolies side. It's not killing user experience at all, if the user want, they can use the App store, because few if any app will ever make a complete move away from the App store, it would cost them way too much. The only ones that could pull such a trick are DMA's “gatekeeper” apps and they are under scrutiny from the EC, so you're safe here. (Well, Fortnite doesn't fall under DMA's 10 “gateway services” that deserve scrutiny from the DMA, but their alternative store will!)
- nerdjon 3y ago
  Unless I am mistaken, there is nothing here that says a developer has to continue to also have their app on the App Store and allow purchasing through the App Store in addition to their own billing. Meaning, no I actually won't be able to use my iPhone as I always did once this becomes normalized and accepted. Please correct me if I am wrong about what the rule for this actually is.
hu3 3y ago
I find it interesting that some pro-Wallet garden folks argument is: "Don't like Apple? Don't buy it then." Well I can use the same argument for apps. "Don't like this third party app store or their dark patterns? Don't buy it then." Vote with your wallet, goes both ways. Or, hear me out, let's regulate so neither Apple nor other vendors can abuse their customers. And it's not like Apple's protection is effective. AppStore is full of subscription scams.
- generalizations 3y ago
  > Vote with your wallet, goes both ways. So just buy an android. Vote with your wallet! Show Apple their walled garden isn't what people want.
  - hu3 3y ago
    Yes I do prefer Android because I like being treated as an adult. So I already do that. Apple is not currently a choice given that requirement but having more choices is a win on my book so you go EU!
    - generalizations 3y ago
      Some people like having the choice of a curated system, and that requires a walled garden. You're removing choices, not adding them.
      - hu3 3y ago
        That's a false dichotomy. I can have the coice of alternative apps stores AND still enjoy a curated wallet garden. How do I know it works? Android is precisely like that. You see Android users also like the choice of a curated system. Choice being the important word here.
        generalizations 3y ago
        Um. Seems like even in this general thread, the Android ecosystem is considered worse than the Apple walled garden. That's a weird claim to make.
generalizations 3y ago
I agree. People with some experience in marketing - not the scammy kind, but the stuff where you learn to identify what is valuable to paying customers - can probably see the problem here. Apple has intentionally curated a walled garden, and people like it in there. I run void linux machines at home because I customize everything - but my phone is an iPhone because my previous Androids are a morass of unsynchronized semi-crap apps. Now the people outside the walled garden want in, and they're tearing down the walls to do it, and they seem to be completely clueless that by doing so they'll destroy the very thing that makes it so desirable.
bdw5204 3y ago
Apple's app store monopoly deprives users of the freedom to install apps that Apple disapproves of on their own devices. The benefit to users is that you can install apps that violate app store policies such as games about the US Civil War that feature the flag most commonly associated with the losing side of that war[0]. That's one of the more well known examples of Apple practicing censorship of their App Store. The dark patterns such as making it extremely hard to cancel subscriptions or not reminding users that they're about to charge should be made illegal as deceptive billing practices. [0]: https://techcrunch.com/2015/06/25/apple-bans-games-and-apps-featuring-the-confederate-flag/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/06/25/apple-bans-games-and-apps-...
- Ylpertnodi 3y ago
  >the US Civil War that feature the flag most commonly associated with the losing side of that war The Confederate flag, then.
  - bdw5204 3y ago
    The so-called "Confederate flag" that people recognize was never the actual flag of the Confederacy. It was actually just the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The original flag of the Confederacy actually looks very similar to the American flag which is why their army used a different flag in the first place. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State...
    - burnerthrow008 3y ago
      Distinction without a difference.
littlestymaar 3y ago
> The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone It's obviously not the case. Not you, not anyone else. You obviously aren't mad about how unsafe MacOs is because Apple doesn't restrict installation on it. And you shouldn't be mad that the iPhone walled garden is no more, you did not buy it for that reason. It's somehow concerning that the company has so much grasp on your perception of reality that you are spitting out their propaganda like this.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  Please don't tell me what is and is not the case for myself, I clearly said what is the case for me and maybe instead of trying to explain why I supposedly feel differently you actually ask why those platforms are different. I use my iPhone and Mac very differently. All of the apps on my Mac were a single purchase, I don't need to worry about dark patterns there because I just own what I have. The mobile market is inherently different, largely thanks to developers pushing alternative forms of ownership. Instead of being able to just buy it, most of the apps on my iPhone are subscription based. Meaning I am more at the mercy of dark patterns by the developers.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > I clearly said what is the case for me You said it, yes. That means that's what you now believe. Not that it's necessarily true. > All of the apps on my Mac were a single purchase, I don't need to worry about dark patterns there because I just own what I have. Are you using a firewall to block software updates? If not, you're still within reach of the developer and they can pull the rug under your feet. > Meaning I am more at the mercy of dark patterns by the developers. The developer cannot force you to move out if the apple app store in the first place! (Which is far from bulletproof when it comes to dark patterns anyway). If you want to stay in the safe corner of the web, just keep buying through the Apple App store! Like almost everyone does with the Android playstore.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      It is incredibly condescending that when I try to explain why I chose something that you try to tell me it isn't why I chose it. It is also incredibly hypocritical that here we are complaining about being at the mercy of the choices that Apple makes and you are trying to tell me how I actually feel. This boils down to the platforms being different. The way that many apps are monetized on Mac (and Windows) is different to how things are monetized on mobile devices. So please stop telling me how I feel and why I made certain decisions. I think I know why I chose something and not you.
rglullis 3y ago
See, that's the cool thing about open markets: if companies start losing money because their customers prefer the walled garden, they will go back to it.
skrause 3y ago
> The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to stay with the ecosystem. I only chose an iPhone because I don't really like Android and there is nothing else. Only two different platforms is simply not enough choice, so you have to create choice within those platforms. While you like the walled garden I would like a native Firefox with the Firefox engine and uBlock Origin.
cjpearson 3y ago
I find the situation is similar to right-to-work laws. If you find the walled-garden/closed-shop beneficial, you will not want it to be forcibly cracked open. Even though an individual can opt to remain with the App Store (or union), the influence of Apple (or the union) has diminished relative to the employer (or Facebook, Epic etc). In the end, despite all the marketing, neither issue is about user or worker freedom. It's about which entity has more power.
tdb7893 3y ago
I think most users don't care about the app store and would love a significant discount. Like if you have companies and users the choice people wouldn't willingly pay more for it
- NoPicklez 3y ago
  I don't think my parents are going to understand that they can navigate to a particular website on the mobile browser where they can download apps or perhaps for no different in price at all out of freedom. They would say why can't I just download it on the app store. You forget that is why a app store was introduced in the first place on the smartphone. To enable an easy centralised place for all apps and games. The average/majority of the population were not going to navigate to shitty mobile websites or desktop websites on their mobile browser to download apps in 2008.
simion314 3y ago
You could open your eyes and look at reality and not imagined universe. Facebook apps are still on Android store, Facebook users do not install the application from some shady store. The issue is that Apple is a greedy bitch, they do not allow the developers to put a text on theier app that would inform the USER that they have a CHOICE to purchase a book/DLC/music from a website. See above I bolded for you that Apple is removing choices from the user.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  I wouldn't call it imagined when Fortnite is not available on the Android App Store... There is at least one company that is very much pushing for this exact scenario, and has announced plans for releasing a store on iOS.
  - simion314 3y ago
    So can you find other real example, since this one is invalid because of Epic lawsuit. All Apple fans name Facebook so please show us the Facebook example or maybe shut up about Facebook and use a real example not imagined ones.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      What about Epic's lawsuit makes Fortnite invalid? Fortnite also is not on the most popular store on PC so it is not just about their lawsuit. They want to run a store on all platforms and have said they will be launching an Epic game store on iOS. So I don't understand why they are invalid. But that is a clear example, they are not on the official store for iOS or Android (which also is not part of Epic's lawsuit). As far as Facebook goes, I don't think anyone is claiming that Facebook will in fact do it so maybe tone it down a bit. But Facebook is an example of a company that has enough of a user base that they could try to convince users to download a store and likely many would since they are addicted to social media and they own Instagram. TikTok likely could. Microsoft would be stupid to not be looking into it. Steam could be looking into it. None of those are concrete and to my knowledge none of them have signaled that they would. But those are companies that have enough of a name and a product that they could likely very easily get users to download the App Store which turns into a gateway for others to use their store instead of the Apple App Store since it is is now on their phone. Regardless of all of those companies, there is zero reason to discount the fact that Epic is doing this on iOS. They skip the Android Play Store and they are doing it on PC. Fortnite has a ton of market power. Edit: Also Facebook very much has an incentive to explore this option. Not only would it be another revenue source (and maybe they could somehow tie it into their VR/AR stuff) but they have been vocal about their issues with Apple in the past.
debo_ 3y ago
It's not focused on the developers. As the DMA intends, it is focused on the digital market of mobile apps, which is currently anticompetitive.
NoPicklez 3y ago
I do often think people forget that when the iPhone app store was released it was a game changer. The whole idea of a single place to download all apps and games was huge for most people including developers. It meant that everything was there, in the one place and managed through that one app. Now a decade has passed and we're asking for change. That's fine, but we can't forget that when the app store first came out there wasn't this hysteria around the need to sideload. The app store as a place for developers to publish their apps was huge, Apple did the publishing for you. How that we all have more choice, we're expecting Apple to change to provide more choice. But we can't forget how beneficial the app store and the "walled" approach was. I do agree with a lot of your points. Now there could be an aspect of predatory behavior by Apple in the way they charge developers etc, but that's where I feel the problem should be tackled. If the iPhone walled garden app store approach is so bad, then why is it so successful?
- nerdjon 3y ago
  > Now there could be an aspect of predatory behavior by Apple in the way they charge developers etc, but that's where I feel the problem should be tackled. Right! Just because I agree with the core part of the App Store doesn't mean that it isn't without faults. But let's not rip up what is there completely to fix other issues, and just make things worse in the process. We saw a similar conversation when Steam came out about Piracy of games.
  - NoPicklez 3y ago
    Completely agree!
itscodingtime 3y ago
I’m bothered too. I’m looking forward to the first viral app distributed in an alternate App Store with a zero day that can infect iPhones that do not have that app or store installed. I bet Apple will be blamed somehow. There’s a correlated relationship between open platforms and security but people in this thread seem to imply this has zero security implications.

afavour 3y ago

> so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand why they can't subscribe to Netflix through the iOS app? How many know what Apple's cut even is? The government has all kinds of regulation in what my utility providers can and can't do, in ways I'm not fully clued into. I see this as similar. > I have less control over my phone, not more. > Developers I also hope quickly realize that if they try to push me to subscribe outside of the App Store they will get $0 from me instead of 70%. To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud.

nerdjon 3y ago
> How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand why they can't subscribe to Netflix through the iOS app? How many know what Apple's cut even is? The iPhone isn't a new platform though. I feel like people well understand what they can and cannot download through the App Store by this point. While I do completely agree that Apple needs to loosen the control on things like porn apps, that is a different issue. As far as Netflix, that is ultimately Netflix choice. They could allow you to subscribe through the App Store if they really wanted. As far as Apple's cut. I mean I don't ask my grocery store what their cut is, or target, or any other store. I don't ask what Steam's cut is, or Xbox, or Playstation, even though all 3 of those are similar cuts. As a user, that number really doesn't mean anything to me. > To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud. That is the problem, how free am I really to ignore it if the only way to get by budget app or whatever other app that I have come to rely on is suddenly a different store or they just don't want me to subscribe through the App Store anymore. This isn't hypothetical, if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Instead of being able to choose if I want to play Fortnite or not, I instead am choosing if I care enough to download an alliterative store. Why is that ok? Instead Epic is making the choice for me, and it is up to me to decide if I care enough. And then it becomes normalized and just accepted because most users who don't understand the risks of alternative stores, just go with it.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  > if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Yes? So far Apple hasn't had any trouble making that choice for you, letting Epic offer another option is not equivalent to taking away choices. You might as well be complaining that Epic or Apple's EULA is limiting your decision. It's a you problem.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    Epic was the one that made choices that pushed apple to remove Fortnite. Let's not twist history and say that Apple just suddenly chose to remove Fortnite. Epic made certain choices likely knowing what the outcome would be. Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose. If I want to play Fortnite on my iPhone I will have no choice but to use the store. So I have the choice I want to make "Do I want to play Fortnite" and then the choice I am forced to make by the developers "Do I want to download the Epic store". That is removing choice from me.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      I'm surprised that the iPhone is over 10 years old now and you still think all software is obligated to get distributed via the App Store. If you only download software from the App Store, that's your choice - the world does not revolve around you or Apple's decisions though. Look on Mac - you don't have a choice if you want to play Java Minecraft through the App Store. If you don't sideload, that "choice" has already been made for you. And it's certainly not because Mojang is going out of their way to spite Apple fans. Specifically, professionals avoid the App Store because it has been a bad deal on every platform it's appeared. You want your choice? Your choice is to not use that software at all, and find an alternative. That's what you decide when you die by the sword of a third-party's whims.
    - afavour 3y ago
      > Epic is the one that is removing my choice to play Fortnite through the App Store if I choose Yes and no. I get what you’re saying. But Apple demanding a 30% cut is just as much of a reason for your choice being removed. If they didn’t demand that then Epic wouldn’t have done anything. Neither party is innocent here, they’re both multinational tech giants fighting over our money.
generalizations 3y ago
Except that the free market has already shown that users prefer the walled garden, because they keep buying iPhones. If you don't like the App Store limitation, then you're free to go buy an Android.
- HideousKojima 3y ago
  >Except that the free market has already shown that users prefer the walled garden, because they keep buying iPhones. That's assuming they're buying iPhones because of the walled garden and not because of other reasons.
  - generalizations 3y ago
    Yes, and I think that the benefits gained by the walled garden are a big part of the iPhone's popularity. It's simple, it works, the scams are kept to a minimum, and it's a consistent, well-integrated experience. Those are all true of iPhones because of the walled garden; Android can't boast any of that.
    - HideousKojima 3y ago
      99% of Android users never install an app from outside the app store either, Apple just does a better job filtering scams etc. out of their app store. If Google did a better job of curation it would be a comparable experience for the overwhelming majority of users. The ability to install 3rd party apps has effectively zero effect on how well Apple curates their official app store.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        > Apple just does a better job filtering scams etc. out of their app store. Well, sometimes: https://www.pcmag.com/news/beware-theres-a-fake-lastpass-app-on-apples-app-store https://www.pcmag.com/news/beware-theres-a-fake-lastpass-app... Just make sure that Grandma knows any of her security apps could be a Trojan, and she should be safe.
      - 3y ago
sbuk 3y ago
If it’s enforced by regulations, by definition it’s no longer a “free” market. It’s a regulated one.
- EMIRELADERO 3y ago
  The regulations made the smartphone/mobile OS market non-free in order to make the "apps for <insert OS name here>" market free.
  - sbuk 3y ago
    Just no. You can twist it all you want. The app market in the EU is no longer a free market in any sense.
- mthoms 3y ago
  >If it’s enforced by regulations, by definition it’s no longer a “free” market. It’s a regulated one. By that definition there are no free markets nearly anywhere (save for illegal markets). At least not in modern, well-functioning economies. (Attention pedants: I said nearly)
nucleardog 3y ago
> To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud. This only really creates no impact to users if Apple were to force all apps to also be listed in their App Store. If, e.g., Facebook were to decide they don’t like existing App Store policies and start their own store and only list their apps there, for a large portion of people using Facebook’s store would effectively be a requirement (in many places WhatsApp is a requirement). What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? You don’t have a choice there either. (Besides returning the hardware if you have the option.) I’m with the GP here. I don’t own any other Apple hardware, but bought my phone (after a long line of Android hardware starting from the original ADP1) specifically to not have to deal with any of this. I don’t have the time and energy to deal with any of this anymore. I have paid a premium to have these choices taken away from me and the decisions made for me. Sorry I’m ruining the world, but if people want a phone they can install arbitrary binaries on I really don’t understand why they can’t just go buy an Android. As you say, free markets… if this _actually_ mattered to people then Apple should take a hit in the market and either change their behavior or disappear entirely. Yet here we are.
- valicord 3y ago
  > What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? You don’t have a choice there either. (Besides returning the hardware if you have the option.) Surely that's more choice than if the app for some piece of hardware you bought is not on iOS at all because Apple refuses to approve it?
- orangecat 3y ago
  What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store? What happens if the app is only available for iOS? What happens when all your friends use iMessage and Facetime? Apple isn't saving us from platform lock-in; they're benefiting hugely from it. I don’t own any other Apple hardware, but bought my phone (after a long line of Android hardware starting from the original ADP1) specifically to not have to deal with any of this. I don’t have the time and energy to deal with any of this anymore. What is "this"? My Android phone works fine with zero maintenance, but when I occasionally want to do hacky things with it I can.

peoplefromibiza 3y ago

> The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone And that's fine The feature is not for you You can keep using your iPhone as you always did, through the Apple app store But, there's a but: how many users would answer "no" to "would you like to download our app and get a 30% discount for the same exact features"?

acover 3y ago
Are they forced to list on the apple app store?
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  Good thing is you're not forced to use them either!
  - acover 3y ago
    Do you consider the usage of oligopolies optional? I could live the life of stallman, but this decision kills an amazing user experience for subscriptions.
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      The European commission has you covered on the oligopolies side. It's not killing user experience at all, if the user want, they can use the App store, because few if any app will ever make a complete move away from the App store, it would cost them way too much. The only ones that could pull such a trick are DMA's “gatekeeper” apps and they are under scrutiny from the EC, so you're safe here. (Well, Fortnite doesn't fall under DMA's 10 “gateway services” that deserve scrutiny from the DMA, but their alternative store will!)
nerdjon 3y ago
Unless I am mistaken, there is nothing here that says a developer has to continue to also have their app on the App Store and allow purchasing through the App Store in addition to their own billing. Meaning, no I actually won't be able to use my iPhone as I always did once this becomes normalized and accepted. Please correct me if I am wrong about what the rule for this actually is.

hu3 3y ago

I find it interesting that some pro-Wallet garden folks argument is: "Don't like Apple? Don't buy it then." Well I can use the same argument for apps. "Don't like this third party app store or their dark patterns? Don't buy it then." Vote with your wallet, goes both ways. Or, hear me out, let's regulate so neither Apple nor other vendors can abuse their customers. And it's not like Apple's protection is effective. AppStore is full of subscription scams.

generalizations 3y ago
> Vote with your wallet, goes both ways. So just buy an android. Vote with your wallet! Show Apple their walled garden isn't what people want.
- hu3 3y ago
  Yes I do prefer Android because I like being treated as an adult. So I already do that. Apple is not currently a choice given that requirement but having more choices is a win on my book so you go EU!
  - generalizations 3y ago
    Some people like having the choice of a curated system, and that requires a walled garden. You're removing choices, not adding them.
    - hu3 3y ago
      That's a false dichotomy. I can have the coice of alternative apps stores AND still enjoy a curated wallet garden. How do I know it works? Android is precisely like that. You see Android users also like the choice of a curated system. Choice being the important word here.
      - generalizations 3y ago
        Um. Seems like even in this general thread, the Android ecosystem is considered worse than the Apple walled garden. That's a weird claim to make.

generalizations 3y ago

I agree. People with some experience in marketing - not the scammy kind, but the stuff where you learn to identify what is valuable to paying customers - can probably see the problem here. Apple has intentionally curated a walled garden, and people like it in there. I run void linux machines at home because I customize everything - but my phone is an iPhone because my previous Androids are a morass of unsynchronized semi-crap apps. Now the people outside the walled garden want in, and they're tearing down the walls to do it, and they seem to be completely clueless that by doing so they'll destroy the very thing that makes it so desirable.

bdw5204 3y ago

Apple's app store monopoly deprives users of the freedom to install apps that Apple disapproves of on their own devices. The benefit to users is that you can install apps that violate app store policies such as games about the US Civil War that feature the flag most commonly associated with the losing side of that war[0]. That's one of the more well known examples of Apple practicing censorship of their App Store. The dark patterns such as making it extremely hard to cancel subscriptions or not reminding users that they're about to charge should be made illegal as deceptive billing practices. [0]: https://techcrunch.com/2015/06/25/apple-bans-games-and-apps-featuring-the-confederate-flag/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/06/25/apple-bans-games-and-apps-...

Ylpertnodi 3y ago
>the US Civil War that feature the flag most commonly associated with the losing side of that war The Confederate flag, then.
- bdw5204 3y ago
  The so-called "Confederate flag" that people recognize was never the actual flag of the Confederacy. It was actually just the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The original flag of the Confederacy actually looks very similar to the American flag which is why their army used a different flag in the first place. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State...
  - burnerthrow008 3y ago
    Distinction without a difference.

littlestymaar 3y ago

> The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone It's obviously not the case. Not you, not anyone else. You obviously aren't mad about how unsafe MacOs is because Apple doesn't restrict installation on it. And you shouldn't be mad that the iPhone walled garden is no more, you did not buy it for that reason. It's somehow concerning that the company has so much grasp on your perception of reality that you are spitting out their propaganda like this.

nerdjon 3y ago
Please don't tell me what is and is not the case for myself, I clearly said what is the case for me and maybe instead of trying to explain why I supposedly feel differently you actually ask why those platforms are different. I use my iPhone and Mac very differently. All of the apps on my Mac were a single purchase, I don't need to worry about dark patterns there because I just own what I have. The mobile market is inherently different, largely thanks to developers pushing alternative forms of ownership. Instead of being able to just buy it, most of the apps on my iPhone are subscription based. Meaning I am more at the mercy of dark patterns by the developers.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > I clearly said what is the case for me You said it, yes. That means that's what you now believe. Not that it's necessarily true. > All of the apps on my Mac were a single purchase, I don't need to worry about dark patterns there because I just own what I have. Are you using a firewall to block software updates? If not, you're still within reach of the developer and they can pull the rug under your feet. > Meaning I am more at the mercy of dark patterns by the developers. The developer cannot force you to move out if the apple app store in the first place! (Which is far from bulletproof when it comes to dark patterns anyway). If you want to stay in the safe corner of the web, just keep buying through the Apple App store! Like almost everyone does with the Android playstore.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    It is incredibly condescending that when I try to explain why I chose something that you try to tell me it isn't why I chose it. It is also incredibly hypocritical that here we are complaining about being at the mercy of the choices that Apple makes and you are trying to tell me how I actually feel. This boils down to the platforms being different. The way that many apps are monetized on Mac (and Windows) is different to how things are monetized on mobile devices. So please stop telling me how I feel and why I made certain decisions. I think I know why I chose something and not you.

rglullis 3y ago

See, that's the cool thing about open markets: if companies start losing money because their customers prefer the walled garden, they will go back to it.

skrause 3y ago

> The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to stay with the ecosystem. I only chose an iPhone because I don't really like Android and there is nothing else. Only two different platforms is simply not enough choice, so you have to create choice within those platforms. While you like the walled garden I would like a native Firefox with the Firefox engine and uBlock Origin.

cjpearson 3y ago

I find the situation is similar to right-to-work laws. If you find the walled-garden/closed-shop beneficial, you will not want it to be forcibly cracked open. Even though an individual can opt to remain with the App Store (or union), the influence of Apple (or the union) has diminished relative to the employer (or Facebook, Epic etc). In the end, despite all the marketing, neither issue is about user or worker freedom. It's about which entity has more power.

tdb7893 3y ago

I think most users don't care about the app store and would love a significant discount. Like if you have companies and users the choice people wouldn't willingly pay more for it

NoPicklez 3y ago
I don't think my parents are going to understand that they can navigate to a particular website on the mobile browser where they can download apps or perhaps for no different in price at all out of freedom. They would say why can't I just download it on the app store. You forget that is why a app store was introduced in the first place on the smartphone. To enable an easy centralised place for all apps and games. The average/majority of the population were not going to navigate to shitty mobile websites or desktop websites on their mobile browser to download apps in 2008.

simion314 3y ago

You could open your eyes and look at reality and not imagined universe. Facebook apps are still on Android store, Facebook users do not install the application from some shady store. The issue is that Apple is a greedy bitch, they do not allow the developers to put a text on theier app that would inform the USER that they have a CHOICE to purchase a book/DLC/music from a website. See above I bolded for you that Apple is removing choices from the user.

nerdjon 3y ago
I wouldn't call it imagined when Fortnite is not available on the Android App Store... There is at least one company that is very much pushing for this exact scenario, and has announced plans for releasing a store on iOS.
- simion314 3y ago
  So can you find other real example, since this one is invalid because of Epic lawsuit. All Apple fans name Facebook so please show us the Facebook example or maybe shut up about Facebook and use a real example not imagined ones.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    What about Epic's lawsuit makes Fortnite invalid? Fortnite also is not on the most popular store on PC so it is not just about their lawsuit. They want to run a store on all platforms and have said they will be launching an Epic game store on iOS. So I don't understand why they are invalid. But that is a clear example, they are not on the official store for iOS or Android (which also is not part of Epic's lawsuit). As far as Facebook goes, I don't think anyone is claiming that Facebook will in fact do it so maybe tone it down a bit. But Facebook is an example of a company that has enough of a user base that they could try to convince users to download a store and likely many would since they are addicted to social media and they own Instagram. TikTok likely could. Microsoft would be stupid to not be looking into it. Steam could be looking into it. None of those are concrete and to my knowledge none of them have signaled that they would. But those are companies that have enough of a name and a product that they could likely very easily get users to download the App Store which turns into a gateway for others to use their store instead of the Apple App Store since it is is now on their phone. Regardless of all of those companies, there is zero reason to discount the fact that Epic is doing this on iOS. They skip the Android Play Store and they are doing it on PC. Fortnite has a ton of market power. Edit: Also Facebook very much has an incentive to explore this option. Not only would it be another revenue source (and maybe they could somehow tie it into their VR/AR stuff) but they have been vocal about their issues with Apple in the past.

debo_ 3y ago

It's not focused on the developers. As the DMA intends, it is focused on the digital market of mobile apps, which is currently anticompetitive.

NoPicklez 3y ago

I do often think people forget that when the iPhone app store was released it was a game changer. The whole idea of a single place to download all apps and games was huge for most people including developers. It meant that everything was there, in the one place and managed through that one app. Now a decade has passed and we're asking for change. That's fine, but we can't forget that when the app store first came out there wasn't this hysteria around the need to sideload. The app store as a place for developers to publish their apps was huge, Apple did the publishing for you. How that we all have more choice, we're expecting Apple to change to provide more choice. But we can't forget how beneficial the app store and the "walled" approach was. I do agree with a lot of your points. Now there could be an aspect of predatory behavior by Apple in the way they charge developers etc, but that's where I feel the problem should be tackled. If the iPhone walled garden app store approach is so bad, then why is it so successful?

nerdjon 3y ago
> Now there could be an aspect of predatory behavior by Apple in the way they charge developers etc, but that's where I feel the problem should be tackled. Right! Just because I agree with the core part of the App Store doesn't mean that it isn't without faults. But let's not rip up what is there completely to fix other issues, and just make things worse in the process. We saw a similar conversation when Steam came out about Piracy of games.
- NoPicklez 3y ago
  Completely agree!

itscodingtime 3y ago

I’m bothered too. I’m looking forward to the first viral app distributed in an alternate App Store with a zero day that can infect iPhones that do not have that app or store installed. I bet Apple will be blamed somehow. There’s a correlated relationship between open platforms and security but people in this thread seem to imply this has zero security implications.