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I’m an amateur woodworker. I’ve used Japanese saws, chisels, and other tools for many years. It has always seemed to me that efficiency and skill are the drivin

I’m an amateur woodworker. I’ve used Japanese saws, chisels, and other tools for many years. It has always seemed to me that efficiency and skill are the driving forces behind many traditional Japanese woodworking practices. They tend to be very efficient in using metal and wood, paying for this efficiency with greater skill requirements for the tools and techniques. This means they often need complicated tools or joinery to achieve the same things that a European carpenter may have solved by adding another oak beam, more metal bracing, or a longer saw. For example, the article talks about the bimetal construction of this saw, using expensive and rare high-quality steel only for the teeth (this efficient use of rare metal is also the driving force behind the design of the katana). This is harder to make than a full-steel tool. Japanese saws are typically very thin, again requiring much less metal. This means that the saws cut on a pull stroke, rather than a push stroke like European saws. Since the saw is much more flexible this requires more skill. But you end up with a very thin kerf and minimal waste. Much traditional Japanese carpentry involves complex joints made of hardwood, not typically fastened with metal (e.g., nails, screws). The amount of slop you’d see in an 18th-century metal-fastened European joint would have been unthinkable to a contemporaneous Japanese carpenter.

steve_adams_86 3y ago
To your last point, some of the joinery used at that time was absolutely beautiful and required levels of skill many modern wood workers will never attain. It’s fascinating how much precision was necessary to make such ornate joints work. And they were even perfectly functional, too. I tried my hand at a few for years and never produced anything worth using in a project around my home. I’m nothing like good at wood working, but it was humbling anyway. They did so much more than I can with a lot less than I’ve got. I guess they had time, mentors, and a culture valuing skilled craftsmanship on their side.
- jfoutz 3y ago
  You tried longer than I did. maybe 2 years or so, probably less. I do really like my cheap double sided pull saw. I don't think I realized how much extra control I have with that longer handle, till I read some of the links that talk about different handle attachments. I also found it quite humbling. But I take a little comfort in, that was their job, man. It's our hobby. I tell myself if I spent 10 years at that instead of poking at computers, I'd do a lot better. (That may not be true, but it's what I tell myself)
  - sonofhans 3y ago
    For sure you would. You’re a human :) One of the pleasures of building things as a hobby is that you can optimize for whatever the the fuck you want. Sometimes you want a working solution in 10 minutes and duct tape is ok. Sometimes you want to learn a new technique and who cares how long it takes? So no hate on your cheap saws; measuring right is all that matters anyway.
  - steve_adams_86 3y ago
    > that was their job, man Absolutely. I'm not going to pretend programming is a superhuman capability (it's increasingly unremarkable), but building large interactive and automated systems which run entire businesses must be similarly impressive on some level. I know my work is a bit like lego at times, but I also build bespoke, interesting, even challenging systems. Maybe some day when developers almost exclusively use AI to do what I do now, they'll look back at my work and think "Man, that's impressive. I tried writing [some application] for a couple years using nothing but Rust, but it turned out awful. It's insane what these people did with a keyboard and a programming language".
- sonofhans 3y ago
  They didn’t have good alternatives. Me? If I’m in a rush I can make a perfectly serviceable joint with pocket screws, good enough for many applications. That takes far less than 1% the time to make a durable wood-to-wood joint. Durability is the other thing. Much Japanese architecture was very open to the elements, and the joints had to hold solid with seasonable movement. A simple metal fastener like a screw will not do that. Even in a climate-controlled environment most metal-assisted joints are ephemeral compared with simple old tech like wood-to-wood joints and hide glue. There’s also a lot to be said for craft for the sake of it. Once you have every other problem solved — efficiency, cost, durability — why not make it beautiful? I don’t think this extends to every human endeavor. Ornament is often a hazard to maintainability (e.g., an old Bugatti, a new Ferrari, most software), but not always. This type of joinery is complex so that it is maintainable, which is fascinating to me.
  - yial 3y ago
    Part of it has to do with when different adhesives were developed in Japan. If you don’t have adhesives, you use more complex joinery to achieve results. But I believe it was also a desire to have beautifully crafted strong joints. However, rice glue is surprisingly strong when used correctly. WOOD JOINTS IN CLASSICAL JAPANESE ARCHITECTURE By Torashichi Sumiyoshi And Gengo Matsui Is a great resource. “We can only marvel at the solutions adopted. They took into account time dependent process, such as shrinkage or slippage caused by dynamic loading. The intricacy of hte internal structure of the joint si hidden yb the apparent simplicity of its appearance. Various shapes connect into each other with ease. This wisdom si the result of years of patient work; we have much to learn from ing worldwide. is mentioned ni the authors' comments. The purpose of this book Nowadays, joints are made using metal parts. The splices and connecting joints have become much simpler. It si now possible to construct large wooden structures using standard processes. However, the uncertain properties of wood have brought forward the problem of weakening of the joints. This work goes back to the fundamental of joining. It is recommended to all technicians and also to architects and engineers. Yukihiro Kamiyama Professor, Waseda University it.”
    - sonofhans 3y ago
wheresmycraisin 3y ago
> Japanese saws are typically very thin, again requiring much less metal. This means that the saws cut on a pull stroke, rather than a push stroke like European saws. Since the saw is much more flexible this requires more skill. But you end up with a very thin kerf and minimal waste. Japanese non-disposible saws seem quite beefy and more comparable to western saws in thickness. The super thin disposibles are a modern innovation (impulse hardening not being available in the Edo period...). Also, western joinery saws are very thin. The fact that it is flexible does not affect its use because it doesn't flex when you pull it, so that's not something you have to worry about. In fact they are ideal beginner saws because they are higher quality (than, say, whatever you can get at home depot for $40) and don't need to be sharpened (because these days they are all replaceable). > Much traditional Japanese carpentry involves complex joints made of hardwood, Actually most Japanese woods are quite soft. Most japanese planes wouldn't be able to handle Maple or Hickory, to say nothing of the harder exotics. > not typically fastened with metal (e.g., nails, screws). Timberframing is a uncommon but definitely still a thing in the US and Europe. And 2x4 stick framing with metal fasteners is also a thing in Japan, having gained popularity b/c of its simplicity in recent decades. > The amount of slop you’d see in an 18th-century metal-fastened European joint would have been unthinkable to a contemporaneous Japanese carpenter. I'd put 18th century european fine furniture against japanese fine furniture any day. It's not until the 20th century that you saw a decline in western skills. The secret to the japanese is that they kept the tradition and skills alive, whereas in the west it's had to be revived.
- diab0lic 3y ago
  > Japanese non-disposible saws seem quite beefy and more comparable to western saws in thickness. I’ve got a handful of forged 240mm ryoba annd dozuki in my shop that are notably thinner than disposables according to my digital calipers > And 2x4 stick framing with metal fasteners is also a thing in Japan, having gained popularity b/c of its simplicity in recent decades. Agreed. I’ve heard nearly all new construction is stud construction these days. > Most japanese planes wouldn't be able to handle Maple or Hickory, to say nothing of the harder exotics. I often see this repeated in online woodworking forums but my experience here has been different albeit limited to kanna blades from two makers. > I'd put 18th century european fine furniture against japanese fine furniture any day. It's not until the 20th century that you saw a decline in western skills. Agreed here too. Furniture studies from that time period make this evident. Western tools from that time period don’t differ as much either.
steve_gh 3y ago
"It has always seemed to me that efficiency and skill are the driving forces behind many traditional Japanese woodworking practices. They tend to be very efficient in using metal and wood, paying for this efficiency with greater skill requirements for the tools and techniques" Sounds like Ruby (which comes from Japan). The metaprogramming can be really efficient, but it requires skill to know when and when not to use it.

steve_adams_86 3y ago

To your last point, some of the joinery used at that time was absolutely beautiful and required levels of skill many modern wood workers will never attain. It’s fascinating how much precision was necessary to make such ornate joints work. And they were even perfectly functional, too. I tried my hand at a few for years and never produced anything worth using in a project around my home. I’m nothing like good at wood working, but it was humbling anyway. They did so much more than I can with a lot less than I’ve got. I guess they had time, mentors, and a culture valuing skilled craftsmanship on their side.

jfoutz 3y ago
You tried longer than I did. maybe 2 years or so, probably less. I do really like my cheap double sided pull saw. I don't think I realized how much extra control I have with that longer handle, till I read some of the links that talk about different handle attachments. I also found it quite humbling. But I take a little comfort in, that was their job, man. It's our hobby. I tell myself if I spent 10 years at that instead of poking at computers, I'd do a lot better. (That may not be true, but it's what I tell myself)
- sonofhans 3y ago
  For sure you would. You’re a human :) One of the pleasures of building things as a hobby is that you can optimize for whatever the the fuck you want. Sometimes you want a working solution in 10 minutes and duct tape is ok. Sometimes you want to learn a new technique and who cares how long it takes? So no hate on your cheap saws; measuring right is all that matters anyway.
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  > that was their job, man Absolutely. I'm not going to pretend programming is a superhuman capability (it's increasingly unremarkable), but building large interactive and automated systems which run entire businesses must be similarly impressive on some level. I know my work is a bit like lego at times, but I also build bespoke, interesting, even challenging systems. Maybe some day when developers almost exclusively use AI to do what I do now, they'll look back at my work and think "Man, that's impressive. I tried writing [some application] for a couple years using nothing but Rust, but it turned out awful. It's insane what these people did with a keyboard and a programming language".
sonofhans 3y ago
They didn’t have good alternatives. Me? If I’m in a rush I can make a perfectly serviceable joint with pocket screws, good enough for many applications. That takes far less than 1% the time to make a durable wood-to-wood joint. Durability is the other thing. Much Japanese architecture was very open to the elements, and the joints had to hold solid with seasonable movement. A simple metal fastener like a screw will not do that. Even in a climate-controlled environment most metal-assisted joints are ephemeral compared with simple old tech like wood-to-wood joints and hide glue. There’s also a lot to be said for craft for the sake of it. Once you have every other problem solved — efficiency, cost, durability — why not make it beautiful? I don’t think this extends to every human endeavor. Ornament is often a hazard to maintainability (e.g., an old Bugatti, a new Ferrari, most software), but not always. This type of joinery is complex so that it is maintainable, which is fascinating to me.
- yial 3y ago
  Part of it has to do with when different adhesives were developed in Japan. If you don’t have adhesives, you use more complex joinery to achieve results. But I believe it was also a desire to have beautifully crafted strong joints. However, rice glue is surprisingly strong when used correctly. WOOD JOINTS IN CLASSICAL JAPANESE ARCHITECTURE By Torashichi Sumiyoshi And Gengo Matsui Is a great resource. “We can only marvel at the solutions adopted. They took into account time dependent process, such as shrinkage or slippage caused by dynamic loading. The intricacy of hte internal structure of the joint si hidden yb the apparent simplicity of its appearance. Various shapes connect into each other with ease. This wisdom si the result of years of patient work; we have much to learn from ing worldwide. is mentioned ni the authors' comments. The purpose of this book Nowadays, joints are made using metal parts. The splices and connecting joints have become much simpler. It si now possible to construct large wooden structures using standard processes. However, the uncertain properties of wood have brought forward the problem of weakening of the joints. This work goes back to the fundamental of joining. It is recommended to all technicians and also to architects and engineers. Yukihiro Kamiyama Professor, Waseda University it.”
  - sonofhans 3y ago

wheresmycraisin 3y ago

> Japanese saws are typically very thin, again requiring much less metal. This means that the saws cut on a pull stroke, rather than a push stroke like European saws. Since the saw is much more flexible this requires more skill. But you end up with a very thin kerf and minimal waste. Japanese non-disposible saws seem quite beefy and more comparable to western saws in thickness. The super thin disposibles are a modern innovation (impulse hardening not being available in the Edo period...). Also, western joinery saws are very thin. The fact that it is flexible does not affect its use because it doesn't flex when you pull it, so that's not something you have to worry about. In fact they are ideal beginner saws because they are higher quality (than, say, whatever you can get at home depot for $40) and don't need to be sharpened (because these days they are all replaceable). > Much traditional Japanese carpentry involves complex joints made of hardwood, Actually most Japanese woods are quite soft. Most japanese planes wouldn't be able to handle Maple or Hickory, to say nothing of the harder exotics. > not typically fastened with metal (e.g., nails, screws). Timberframing is a uncommon but definitely still a thing in the US and Europe. And 2x4 stick framing with metal fasteners is also a thing in Japan, having gained popularity b/c of its simplicity in recent decades. > The amount of slop you’d see in an 18th-century metal-fastened European joint would have been unthinkable to a contemporaneous Japanese carpenter. I'd put 18th century european fine furniture against japanese fine furniture any day. It's not until the 20th century that you saw a decline in western skills. The secret to the japanese is that they kept the tradition and skills alive, whereas in the west it's had to be revived.

diab0lic 3y ago
> Japanese non-disposible saws seem quite beefy and more comparable to western saws in thickness. I’ve got a handful of forged 240mm ryoba annd dozuki in my shop that are notably thinner than disposables according to my digital calipers > And 2x4 stick framing with metal fasteners is also a thing in Japan, having gained popularity b/c of its simplicity in recent decades. Agreed. I’ve heard nearly all new construction is stud construction these days. > Most japanese planes wouldn't be able to handle Maple or Hickory, to say nothing of the harder exotics. I often see this repeated in online woodworking forums but my experience here has been different albeit limited to kanna blades from two makers. > I'd put 18th century european fine furniture against japanese fine furniture any day. It's not until the 20th century that you saw a decline in western skills. Agreed here too. Furniture studies from that time period make this evident. Western tools from that time period don’t differ as much either.

steve_gh 3y ago

"It has always seemed to me that efficiency and skill are the driving forces behind many traditional Japanese woodworking practices. They tend to be very efficient in using metal and wood, paying for this efficiency with greater skill requirements for the tools and techniques" Sounds like Ruby (which comes from Japan). The metaprogramming can be really efficient, but it requires skill to know when and when not to use it.