6 ms·

Self inflicted wound in the middle of several days of scheduled depositions. Just about as suspicious as could be.

by jjk166 3y ago

jongjong 3y ago
Agreed. This has red flags all over it. I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Corporations can be shielded from liability when this happens. One executive could end up charged with a crime but the company itself can always paint them as a rogue agent who acted independently. IMO, this will keep getting worse. Commodification of scapegoats.
- hughesjj 3y ago
  > I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Always_has_been.gif I mean, nestle still exists, as does the entire financial and energy industries.
- Cheer2171 3y ago
  > I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. When have they not? This is literally the entire point of limited liability for hundreds of years. Goes back to the East India Company.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
    I've said before that any sufficiently powerful corporation is indistinguishable from a government. The East India company was a good example, they had their own army & fought wars of conquest.
    - jongjong 3y ago
      Yes, there were very few such corporations before and they were not at the core of a nation's economy as they are today. The fact that they failed spectacularly should have been a lesson for us to avoid them! Instead, we've enshrined the concept of corporate personhood into law. Kind of insane to think that we have a construct which at the same time claims that a corporation is a person but also that the corporation is not liable to legal prosecution for its crimes as a person is. I.e. a corporation itself cannot go to jail as a person can. The corporation can do whatever it wants and continue operating unimpeded so long as it can keep finding new people to serve as scapegoats. Imagine if some people would have the same rights as corporations; the bosses of mafias could assassinate anyone, pay a fine, throw a scapegoat under the bus and continue 'business' as usual. Police couldn't even reach a plea deal with the scapegoats because no matter what information the scapegoats revealed about the big boss, it would be inadmissible because actually, in that very special case, the big mafia boss is not a person but, conveniently, an abstract entity and therefore it cannot physically go to jail. How about shutting down their operations for x amount of time? That should be the bare minimum... It could be applied to corporations, why is it not?
    - hulitu 3y ago
      > I've said before that any sufficiently powerful corporation is indistinguishable from a government Where do you think the "lobby money" comes from ? /s
readthenotes1 3y ago
There is no handy 24-hour surveilled jail cell for him to be in
dehrmann 3y ago
I'm not convinced. Boeing doesn't want more attention, depositions are stressful, and whistleblowers are predisposed to martyrdom. If you're Boeing, this doesn't make the problem go away, it makes it worse.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > Boeing doesn't want more attention The US also doesn't want Boeing carried through the mud.
- dathinab 3y ago
  if you are Boeing the company that would be stupid sure but what about some specific arbitrary high level figure from Boeing? One which if the person says certain things might lose their job because of this or which is afraid to lose more then their job (e.g. due to them knowingly acting in gross negligence for personal gains).
  - petre 3y ago
    Which one is worse, lose your job or end up in prison?
    - boppo1 3y ago
      You don't end up in prison if there isn't anyone to testify against you.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        So, you kill all the people investigating this death as well? Spund logic, really, sound logic...
      - CoastalCoder 3y ago
        Reminds me a bit of Death Note.
    - aembleton 3y ago
napierzaza 3y ago
[dead]
pclmulqdq 3y ago
Have you ever been deposed? It's an incredibly stressful process, and he's already going through the hell of being a whistleblower. I'm sure Boeing was ready to depose him more and more in order to try to get him to shift his story.
- jjk166 3y ago
  Have you ever shot yourself? Certainly people have committed suicide in stressful situations, but there is no situation where it makes sense that someone would kill themselves, and countless people get deposed who don't. Continuing to depose someone to get them to shift their story is a reasonable strategy if their story can't be backed up by evidence and you aren't worried about anything coming out in the testimony. It's a terrible strategy if the witness is about to reveal where the skeletons are buried.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - salawat 3y ago
    Thank you. You put it far better than I could. And this man was in the right position to know exactly where they all were. A Quality Manager's entire job is to investigate and track why everything bad happens, and when they aren't allowed to fix it, who is responsible for the decision to intentionally not fix, and the rationale provided to justify an overrule. Though I've heard in some strange foreign lands (safety critical industries), the Quality Department isn't hamstrung by being worked around by a member of the C-Suite.

Self inflicted wound in the middle of several days of scheduled depositions. Just about as suspicious as could be.

by jjk166 3y ago

Self inflicted wound in the middle of several days of scheduled depositions. Just about as suspicious as could be.

Agreed. This has red flags all over it. I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Corporations can be shielded from liability when this happens. One executive could end up charged with a crime but the company itself can always paint them as a rogue agent who acted independently. IMO, this will keep getting worse. Commodification of scapegoats.

hughesjj 3y ago
> I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Always_has_been.gif I mean, nestle still exists, as does the entire financial and energy industries.
Cheer2171 3y ago
> I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. When have they not? This is literally the entire point of limited liability for hundreds of years. Goes back to the East India Company.
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
  I've said before that any sufficiently powerful corporation is indistinguishable from a government. The East India company was a good example, they had their own army & fought wars of conquest.
  - jongjong 3y ago
    Yes, there were very few such corporations before and they were not at the core of a nation's economy as they are today. The fact that they failed spectacularly should have been a lesson for us to avoid them! Instead, we've enshrined the concept of corporate personhood into law. Kind of insane to think that we have a construct which at the same time claims that a corporation is a person but also that the corporation is not liable to legal prosecution for its crimes as a person is. I.e. a corporation itself cannot go to jail as a person can. The corporation can do whatever it wants and continue operating unimpeded so long as it can keep finding new people to serve as scapegoats. Imagine if some people would have the same rights as corporations; the bosses of mafias could assassinate anyone, pay a fine, throw a scapegoat under the bus and continue 'business' as usual. Police couldn't even reach a plea deal with the scapegoats because no matter what information the scapegoats revealed about the big boss, it would be inadmissible because actually, in that very special case, the big mafia boss is not a person but, conveniently, an abstract entity and therefore it cannot physically go to jail. How about shutting down their operations for x amount of time? That should be the bare minimum... It could be applied to corporations, why is it not?
  - hulitu 3y ago
    > I've said before that any sufficiently powerful corporation is indistinguishable from a government Where do you think the "lobby money" comes from ? /s

readthenotes1 3y ago

There is no handy 24-hour surveilled jail cell for him to be in

dehrmann 3y ago

I'm not convinced. Boeing doesn't want more attention, depositions are stressful, and whistleblowers are predisposed to martyrdom. If you're Boeing, this doesn't make the problem go away, it makes it worse.

hulitu 3y ago
> Boeing doesn't want more attention The US also doesn't want Boeing carried through the mud.
dathinab 3y ago
if you are Boeing the company that would be stupid sure but what about some specific arbitrary high level figure from Boeing? One which if the person says certain things might lose their job because of this or which is afraid to lose more then their job (e.g. due to them knowingly acting in gross negligence for personal gains).
- petre 3y ago
  Which one is worse, lose your job or end up in prison?
  - boppo1 3y ago
    You don't end up in prison if there isn't anyone to testify against you.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      So, you kill all the people investigating this death as well? Spund logic, really, sound logic...
    - CoastalCoder 3y ago
      Reminds me a bit of Death Note.
  - aembleton 3y ago

napierzaza 3y ago

[dead]

pclmulqdq 3y ago

Have you ever been deposed? It's an incredibly stressful process, and he's already going through the hell of being a whistleblower. I'm sure Boeing was ready to depose him more and more in order to try to get him to shift his story.

jjk166 3y ago
Have you ever shot yourself? Certainly people have committed suicide in stressful situations, but there is no situation where it makes sense that someone would kill themselves, and countless people get deposed who don't. Continuing to depose someone to get them to shift their story is a reasonable strategy if their story can't be backed up by evidence and you aren't worried about anything coming out in the testimony. It's a terrible strategy if the witness is about to reveal where the skeletons are buried.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- salawat 3y ago
  Thank you. You put it far better than I could. And this man was in the right position to know exactly where they all were. A Quality Manager's entire job is to investigate and track why everything bad happens, and when they aren't allowed to fix it, who is responsible for the decision to intentionally not fix, and the rationale provided to justify an overrule. Though I've heard in some strange foreign lands (safety critical industries), the Quality Department isn't hamstrung by being worked around by a member of the C-Suite.