4 ms·

The invention of blue and purple pigments in ancient times (2006)

66 points by perihelions 3y ago

foobarian 3y ago
It's fascinating that just 3 years after article date this [1] gets discovered, which is a fantastic pigment with a slew of desirable properties. It's also fascinating that it was only discovered in 2009 :) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YInMn_Blue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YInMn_Blue
- ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
  It took eleven years from discovery to commercialization in paint, that seems like a long time.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
    I agree. Judging from the price, there is no shortage of demand. Just seems like University admins (and everyone in between) got involved to hinder a deal between inventor and commercializing partner.
- throwup238 3y ago
  Wow, that's one pricey pigment: https://gamblinstore.com/yinmn-blue/ https://gamblinstore.com/yinmn-blue/ That's more like Williamsburg or Old Holland prices.
  - Biganon 3y ago
    I wish I could buy the pure powder Maybe Sigma has it
    - philipkglass 3y ago
      You can get it as powder from Kremer Pigments: https://shop.kremerpigments.com/us/shop/pigments/45320-yinmn-blue.html https://shop.kremerpigments.com/us/shop/pigments/45320-yinmn...
- Isamu 3y ago
  Non-toxic!
anthk 3y ago
Related: http://uriel.cat-v.org/ http://uriel.cat-v.org/ And, well, I miss this guy even if I never met him.
fortran77 3y ago
In the Hebrew bible, there's a commandment to put fringes on garments with corners and to put a blue thread in them: דבר אל־בני ישראל ואמרת אלהם ועשו להם ציצת על־כנפי בגדיהם לדרתם ונתנו על־ציצת הכנף פתיל תכלת (from "Numbers 15" in common termonology). Because we don't know the dye that was used 3000 years ago, today most omit the blue thread, but some people claim that they know what it was (see https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/530127/jewish/Tekhelet-The-Mystery-of-the-Long-Lost-Biblical-Blue-Thread.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/530127/jewish...) and wear fringes with blue. (It's from a cuttlefish, the "chilazon") Personally, I wear the blue thread, but I don't think we really know for sure what they used back then.
- stanrivers 3y ago
  Oh interesting - is this in any way related to why the Israel flag went with blue?
  - relyks 3y ago
    Yep, that and a bunch of ancient Jewish texts mention using blue within religious contexts with spiritual meaning. It's come to be that blue has been considered by Jews as a color that is representative of the Jewish people
  - myth_drannon 3y ago
    Also, the two lines in the flag are tzitzit (cords) which are supposed to be blue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzitzit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzitzit
- perihelions 3y ago
  I found a neat photograph [0] of the process of extracting Tyrian purple from Murex snails. There's a remarkable variety of blue pigments that separate out of that, alongside of the famous purple. (Murex snails being a different hypothesis for the source of the forgotten tekheret dye, separate from the cuttlefish one). [0] https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/03/05/multimedia/05SCI-PURPLE-sub-bzvt/05SCI-PURPLE-sub-bzvt-superJumbo.jpg https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/03/05/multimedia/05SCI-... photo from https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/science/archaeology-tyrian-purple-murex.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/science/archaeology-tyria... ("In Israel, a 3,000-Year-Old Purple Factory")
dboreham 3y ago
Favorite line: "The sepiolite stems from commercially available cat litter." Also reminds me of: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0526719/characters/nm0570570 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0526719/characters/nm0570570
perihelions 3y ago
Apropos of nothing in particular, a sentence from Pliny's Natural History: - "I myself have seen the fleece upon the living animal dyed purple, scarlet, and violet,—a pound and a half of dye being used for each,—just as though they had been produced by Nature in this form, to meet the demands of luxury." https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/60230/pg60230-images.html#BOOK_VIII_CHAP_74 https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/60230/pg60230-images.ht... (Book VIII, Chapter 74)
ndcator 3y ago
What about the more recent invention of blue pigment LED? https://youtu.be/AF8d72mA41M?si=n5J64EBO_4xe5u0Q https://youtu.be/AF8d72mA41M?si=n5J64EBO_4xe5u0Q I found this story facing regarding the inventors determination

66 points by perihelions 3y ago

It's fascinating that just 3 years after article date this [1] gets discovered, which is a fantastic pigment with a slew of desirable properties. It's also fascinating that it was only discovered in 2009 :) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YInMn_Blue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YInMn_Blue

ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
It took eleven years from discovery to commercialization in paint, that seems like a long time.
- IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
  I agree. Judging from the price, there is no shortage of demand. Just seems like University admins (and everyone in between) got involved to hinder a deal between inventor and commercializing partner.
throwup238 3y ago
Wow, that's one pricey pigment: https://gamblinstore.com/yinmn-blue/ https://gamblinstore.com/yinmn-blue/ That's more like Williamsburg or Old Holland prices.
- Biganon 3y ago
  I wish I could buy the pure powder Maybe Sigma has it
  - philipkglass 3y ago
    You can get it as powder from Kremer Pigments: https://shop.kremerpigments.com/us/shop/pigments/45320-yinmn-blue.html https://shop.kremerpigments.com/us/shop/pigments/45320-yinmn...
Isamu 3y ago
Non-toxic!

anthk 3y ago

Related: http://uriel.cat-v.org/ http://uriel.cat-v.org/ And, well, I miss this guy even if I never met him.

fortran77 3y ago

In the Hebrew bible, there's a commandment to put fringes on garments with corners and to put a blue thread in them: דבר אל־בני ישראל ואמרת אלהם ועשו להם ציצת על־כנפי בגדיהם לדרתם ונתנו על־ציצת הכנף פתיל תכלת (from "Numbers 15" in common termonology). Because we don't know the dye that was used 3000 years ago, today most omit the blue thread, but some people claim that they know what it was (see https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/530127/jewish/Tekhelet-The-Mystery-of-the-Long-Lost-Biblical-Blue-Thread.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/530127/jewish...) and wear fringes with blue. (It's from a cuttlefish, the "chilazon") Personally, I wear the blue thread, but I don't think we really know for sure what they used back then.

stanrivers 3y ago
Oh interesting - is this in any way related to why the Israel flag went with blue?
- relyks 3y ago
  Yep, that and a bunch of ancient Jewish texts mention using blue within religious contexts with spiritual meaning. It's come to be that blue has been considered by Jews as a color that is representative of the Jewish people
- myth_drannon 3y ago
  Also, the two lines in the flag are tzitzit (cords) which are supposed to be blue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzitzit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzitzit
perihelions 3y ago
I found a neat photograph [0] of the process of extracting Tyrian purple from Murex snails. There's a remarkable variety of blue pigments that separate out of that, alongside of the famous purple. (Murex snails being a different hypothesis for the source of the forgotten tekheret dye, separate from the cuttlefish one). [0] https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/03/05/multimedia/05SCI-PURPLE-sub-bzvt/05SCI-PURPLE-sub-bzvt-superJumbo.jpg https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/03/05/multimedia/05SCI-... photo from https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/science/archaeology-tyrian-purple-murex.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/science/archaeology-tyria... ("In Israel, a 3,000-Year-Old Purple Factory")

dboreham 3y ago

Favorite line: "The sepiolite stems from commercially available cat litter." Also reminds me of: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0526719/characters/nm0570570 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0526719/characters/nm0570570

perihelions 3y ago

Apropos of nothing in particular, a sentence from Pliny's Natural History: - "I myself have seen the fleece upon the living animal dyed purple, scarlet, and violet,—a pound and a half of dye being used for each,—just as though they had been produced by Nature in this form, to meet the demands of luxury." https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/60230/pg60230-images.html#BOOK_VIII_CHAP_74 https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/60230/pg60230-images.ht... (Book VIII, Chapter 74)

ndcator 3y ago

What about the more recent invention of blue pigment LED? https://youtu.be/AF8d72mA41M?si=n5J64EBO_4xe5u0Q https://youtu.be/AF8d72mA41M?si=n5J64EBO_4xe5u0Q I found this story facing regarding the inventors determination