4 ms·

I think "attack" is a bit much; C++ isn't an attack on C.

Kranar 3y ago
While Ken Thompson never used the word attack, he certainly didn't have a positive opinion of the language or of Bjarne Stroustrup either in terms of his technical contributions or his handling of C++ adoption: https://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/coders-c-plus-plus/ https://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/coders-c-plus-p...
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  Thanks for posting that, I thought it was a great read (as someone who last used C++ probably about 25 years ago...) Given that so many of the criticisms were about C++ being over-complicated, I do worry about languages just becoming more and more difficult over time as everyone wants their pet feature added, but due to backwards-compatibility concerns old/obsolete features are rarely removed. For example, take Java. I think that a ton of goodness has been added to Java over the decades, and for people who have been working with it throughout, it's great. But it feels like the learning curve for someone just getting involved with Java would be really steep, not just because there is just a ton of stuff, but because without having the context of the history and how things were added over time (usually with an eye towards backwards-compatibility) it feels like it would be hard to wrap your head around everything. If you're writing your own new program that's not really a problem as you can just stick to what you know, but if you're getting into an existing codebase that could use lots of different features it feels like it could be daunting. It's been quite a while since I've programmed in Java, so I'm just speculating, but would be curious how other folks relatively new to the language in production environments find the learning curve.
  - dimitrios1 3y ago
    I was doing primarily go development since it was first released up until a few years ago when the pandemic allowed me the opportunity to move into a full time remote gig doing primarily Java development, so I can answer this as I hadn't done Java at that point for over 10 years, so I felt completely new (what Java I did before that, I was mostly trying to not use Java by using play framework or jruby on rails) As someone in the boat you mentioned (sort of) the short answer is modern Java development for 90% of tasks is not complicated at all: it's very much like any programming language used in a bizdev/corp environment -- you are mostly using a framework and a bunch of DSLs. Almost everyone uses Intellij and Gradle for IDE and build, and Junit5 or Spock for unit testing. I passed a technical interview mostly on Spring Framework concepts knowing almost nothing about it, nor having ever used it in production by simply just having the documentation open while I was being interviewed so I could look up the answers. Any language that is popular is going to have frameworks with decent documentation that help you be productive quickly, so I just jumped in doing Spring. The java stuff came as needed, or I referenced something like Effective Java (great book), or a Baeldung article. Java world has made some great strides since the 2000's and early 2010s of XML chaos. It took a while, but I feel like it's in a really good spot and getting better. As an aside, if it hasn't been mentioned to you before, if you like simplicity in a language, but still incredibly productive, you might enjoy Go.
    - progmetaldev 3y ago
      I truly appreciate your answer, as someone that primarily does C#, but learned Java first back around 2003 to 2005. More so because my son is going to be learning Java next year in high school, and I know he'll be looking to me for help, and I'd like to at least be at the same language version as he's learning. I've also been looking at Go quite a bit, especially from a lot of commentary even recently on YouTube, as well as plenty of time during work hours to experiment with languages I'm not familiar with. I've been deciding between Python and Go, and I picked up Python very quickly for the language, but ultimately I think it's the libraries and ecosystem around both that will decide it for me. Just good to see another vote for Go, especially when comparing to Java. I feel like I'm in the same boat as you seem to be, where it's all just syntax and learning frameworks, while having enough experience at this point to also pick up the smaller details while quickly being effective.
      - dimitrios1 3y ago
        No problem. I am also a huge Dream Theater fan.
        progmetaldev 3y ago
        Cool that you picked up on my username. Love lots of progressive metal, from the really heavy stuff, to the noodley jam-band type improvisation.
  - progmetaldev 3y ago
    I haven't used Java since v1.5, roughly around 2005. I do use C# quite a bit, and have since v1.1 (I got into .NET through VB.NET at v1.0, as I had just learned VB through schooling). I look back at all the features that have been added over time, and since I have followed along as it has developed, I embrace the changes. They have made my code more concise and easier to read, with less boilerplate. When I think about someone brand new getting into the language, I truly hope they have a mentor. I can't imagine having to work with someone new to the language, and not being given plenty of time to get them up to speed with both current codebases, as well as newer ones (and I haven't even adopted the newest language versions unless it was suggested to me through Resharper, and I looked up the feature and found how it made my code easier to understand). I feel like the comparison with Java is similar, as both Oracle and Microsoft are large corporations that largely control the language and ecosystem, while also having open source implementations. C# has made some more major changes to the language itself than Java, but both have diverged quite a bit from what they were back in 2005. I'll find out next year, as my son goes into high school, and they are offering Java software development classes. I got Apple Basic on the Apple ][e, QuickBasic, and a bit of C++ in high school, and graduated in 1997. I wouldn't be surprised if he's going to be dealing with Java v1.5 instead of the latest features. At least I'll have a motivation to learn the latest features if he enjoys it and keeps working at it.
    - flakes 3y ago
      > I wouldn't be surprised if he's going to be dealing with Java v1.5 instead of the latest features. Well I certainly hope not… LTS for Java 5 probably hit end of life when he was 2. I’d say most likely the version being installed is Java 17, or 11 if theyre really dated. Java 8 would likely be the absolute minimum, mainly due to the industry being so slow to migrate away from it. Newer programmers are unlikely to ever know what Java felt like before generics and lambdas existed.
      - progmetaldev 3y ago
        I hope not as well, but I went through the same school system. In 1994 I took a computer graphics course, and was taught Apple Basic. It was fun, but I already knew Atari Basic, so it didn't really help other than creatively. The skills did not transfer, even when I went to DOS QuickBasic in 1996! I hope that they have people that understand development, but I won't hold my breath. At least if he is stuck with v1.5, I can use it as an opportunity to increase my knowledge on newer versions, assuming he enjoys the language. I haven't even used or deeply looked into lambdas in Java (but have in a few other languages). He's enjoyed playing with Lua for Roblox, and I've gotten him to go through some of the easier C# tutorials from Microsoft where the execution happens right in the browser.
- richrichie 3y ago
  Thanks for sharing. > perhaps Erik Naggum, scourge of Usenet, was right when he said: “life is too long to know C++ well.” I feel similar about Rust. I have read “the book”. Did a couple of small projects. It is also sort of committee administered language that sucks up tiny features like a giant vacuum cleaner sweeping the streets and changes every hour.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    > that sucks up tiny features like a giant vacuum cleaner sweeping the streets and changes every hour. Can you provide some (preferably recent) examples? My experience has been the opposite. It feels like new features are given a lot of thought and deliberation, and stablizing even something small can take upwards of a year. I will agree that today's Rust is different from Rust 1.0, but I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. More that they were able to come to a stable 1.0-ready core fairly early on, and have been adding on the more tricky parts bit by bit since then.
nerpderp82 3y ago
I didn't mention C++ at all. Was that my argument? This thread is about Python, the GIL. Mojo was brought up as a way to speed up Python code. C++ predates on C in a similar way to how Mojo predates on Python. At least C++ has extern C. https://docs.modular.com/mojo/manual/python/#call-mojo-from-python https://docs.modular.com/mojo/manual/python/#call-mojo-from-... > As shown above, you can call out to Python modules from Mojo. However, there's currently no way to do the reverse—import Mojo modules from Python or call Mojo functions from Python. One way street. Classic commons harvesting.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I think the person you're replying to is just trying to use an analogous example; you didn't need to bring it up. Regardless, I think it's a bit alarmist and overly aggressive to assume nefarious intent. Have the developers acted in ways such that this reputation is deserved? Also, little OT, but it took me unreasonably long to understand that you meant "predates" as the verb form of "predator", not as in "comes before chronologically". The phrase "preys on" may be more clear.
  - nerpderp82 3y ago
    They aren't just trying to bring up an analogous example. It derails the discussion, it is a rhetorical device that has no bearing on the conversation at hand. > Regardless, I think it's a bit alarmist and overly aggressive to assume nefarious intent. You can think those things. You can try and color my points using whatever language you want. That doesn't make it true, you are putting words in my mouth about "nefarious intent". Mojo is taking Python programmers and their programs out of the Python ecosystem and bring them into their ecosystem. Thanks for the splaining about predates, I'll continue to use it. Mojo is definitely 'taking booty' from Python.
android42 3y ago
I wasn't sure whether to agree with this or not, so I finally took a slightly closer look at Mojo just now. This depends on how they license it going forward, and whether they make it open, or use being a superset as a way to capture then trap python users in their ecosystem, and I don't think we have a certain answer which path they'll take yet. The way they let you mix python compatible code with their similar but more performant code [1] looks interesting and provides a nice path for gradual migration and performance improvements. It looks like one of the ways they do this is by letting you define functions that only use typed variables which is something I would like to see make its way back to CPython someday (that is optionally enforcing typing in modules and getting some performance gains out of it). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojo_(programming_language)#Programming_examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojo_(programming_language)#Pr...
- Intralexical 3y ago
  > It looks like one of the ways they do this is by letting you define functions that only use typed variables which is something I would like to see make its way back to CPython someday (that is optionally enforcing typing in modules and getting some performance gains out of it). This is already how Cython and MYPYC work. You add standard PEP-484 type annotations, and they use that to infer where code can be compiled to native instructions. https://cython.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/tutorial/pure.html https://cython.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/tutorial/pure.ht...
- oivey 3y ago
  The typing thing is really unnecessary and a step backwards, IMO. Added typing is maybe great for managing a code base, but it isn’t necessary for performance with a compiler that can do type inference.

While Ken Thompson never used the word attack, he certainly didn't have a positive opinion of the language or of Bjarne Stroustrup either in terms of his technical contributions or his handling of C++ adoption: https://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/coders-c-plus-plus/ https://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/coders-c-plus-p...

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Thanks for posting that, I thought it was a great read (as someone who last used C++ probably about 25 years ago...) Given that so many of the criticisms were about C++ being over-complicated, I do worry about languages just becoming more and more difficult over time as everyone wants their pet feature added, but due to backwards-compatibility concerns old/obsolete features are rarely removed. For example, take Java. I think that a ton of goodness has been added to Java over the decades, and for people who have been working with it throughout, it's great. But it feels like the learning curve for someone just getting involved with Java would be really steep, not just because there is just a ton of stuff, but because without having the context of the history and how things were added over time (usually with an eye towards backwards-compatibility) it feels like it would be hard to wrap your head around everything. If you're writing your own new program that's not really a problem as you can just stick to what you know, but if you're getting into an existing codebase that could use lots of different features it feels like it could be daunting. It's been quite a while since I've programmed in Java, so I'm just speculating, but would be curious how other folks relatively new to the language in production environments find the learning curve.
- dimitrios1 3y ago
  I was doing primarily go development since it was first released up until a few years ago when the pandemic allowed me the opportunity to move into a full time remote gig doing primarily Java development, so I can answer this as I hadn't done Java at that point for over 10 years, so I felt completely new (what Java I did before that, I was mostly trying to not use Java by using play framework or jruby on rails) As someone in the boat you mentioned (sort of) the short answer is modern Java development for 90% of tasks is not complicated at all: it's very much like any programming language used in a bizdev/corp environment -- you are mostly using a framework and a bunch of DSLs. Almost everyone uses Intellij and Gradle for IDE and build, and Junit5 or Spock for unit testing. I passed a technical interview mostly on Spring Framework concepts knowing almost nothing about it, nor having ever used it in production by simply just having the documentation open while I was being interviewed so I could look up the answers. Any language that is popular is going to have frameworks with decent documentation that help you be productive quickly, so I just jumped in doing Spring. The java stuff came as needed, or I referenced something like Effective Java (great book), or a Baeldung article. Java world has made some great strides since the 2000's and early 2010s of XML chaos. It took a while, but I feel like it's in a really good spot and getting better. As an aside, if it hasn't been mentioned to you before, if you like simplicity in a language, but still incredibly productive, you might enjoy Go.
  - progmetaldev 3y ago
    I truly appreciate your answer, as someone that primarily does C#, but learned Java first back around 2003 to 2005. More so because my son is going to be learning Java next year in high school, and I know he'll be looking to me for help, and I'd like to at least be at the same language version as he's learning. I've also been looking at Go quite a bit, especially from a lot of commentary even recently on YouTube, as well as plenty of time during work hours to experiment with languages I'm not familiar with. I've been deciding between Python and Go, and I picked up Python very quickly for the language, but ultimately I think it's the libraries and ecosystem around both that will decide it for me. Just good to see another vote for Go, especially when comparing to Java. I feel like I'm in the same boat as you seem to be, where it's all just syntax and learning frameworks, while having enough experience at this point to also pick up the smaller details while quickly being effective.
    - dimitrios1 3y ago
      No problem. I am also a huge Dream Theater fan.
      - progmetaldev 3y ago
        Cool that you picked up on my username. Love lots of progressive metal, from the really heavy stuff, to the noodley jam-band type improvisation.
- progmetaldev 3y ago
  I haven't used Java since v1.5, roughly around 2005. I do use C# quite a bit, and have since v1.1 (I got into .NET through VB.NET at v1.0, as I had just learned VB through schooling). I look back at all the features that have been added over time, and since I have followed along as it has developed, I embrace the changes. They have made my code more concise and easier to read, with less boilerplate. When I think about someone brand new getting into the language, I truly hope they have a mentor. I can't imagine having to work with someone new to the language, and not being given plenty of time to get them up to speed with both current codebases, as well as newer ones (and I haven't even adopted the newest language versions unless it was suggested to me through Resharper, and I looked up the feature and found how it made my code easier to understand). I feel like the comparison with Java is similar, as both Oracle and Microsoft are large corporations that largely control the language and ecosystem, while also having open source implementations. C# has made some more major changes to the language itself than Java, but both have diverged quite a bit from what they were back in 2005. I'll find out next year, as my son goes into high school, and they are offering Java software development classes. I got Apple Basic on the Apple ][e, QuickBasic, and a bit of C++ in high school, and graduated in 1997. I wouldn't be surprised if he's going to be dealing with Java v1.5 instead of the latest features. At least I'll have a motivation to learn the latest features if he enjoys it and keeps working at it.
  - flakes 3y ago
    > I wouldn't be surprised if he's going to be dealing with Java v1.5 instead of the latest features. Well I certainly hope not… LTS for Java 5 probably hit end of life when he was 2. I’d say most likely the version being installed is Java 17, or 11 if theyre really dated. Java 8 would likely be the absolute minimum, mainly due to the industry being so slow to migrate away from it. Newer programmers are unlikely to ever know what Java felt like before generics and lambdas existed.
    - progmetaldev 3y ago
      I hope not as well, but I went through the same school system. In 1994 I took a computer graphics course, and was taught Apple Basic. It was fun, but I already knew Atari Basic, so it didn't really help other than creatively. The skills did not transfer, even when I went to DOS QuickBasic in 1996! I hope that they have people that understand development, but I won't hold my breath. At least if he is stuck with v1.5, I can use it as an opportunity to increase my knowledge on newer versions, assuming he enjoys the language. I haven't even used or deeply looked into lambdas in Java (but have in a few other languages). He's enjoyed playing with Lua for Roblox, and I've gotten him to go through some of the easier C# tutorials from Microsoft where the execution happens right in the browser.
richrichie 3y ago
Thanks for sharing. > perhaps Erik Naggum, scourge of Usenet, was right when he said: “life is too long to know C++ well.” I feel similar about Rust. I have read “the book”. Did a couple of small projects. It is also sort of committee administered language that sucks up tiny features like a giant vacuum cleaner sweeping the streets and changes every hour.
- kelnos 3y ago
  > that sucks up tiny features like a giant vacuum cleaner sweeping the streets and changes every hour. Can you provide some (preferably recent) examples? My experience has been the opposite. It feels like new features are given a lot of thought and deliberation, and stablizing even something small can take upwards of a year. I will agree that today's Rust is different from Rust 1.0, but I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. More that they were able to come to a stable 1.0-ready core fairly early on, and have been adding on the more tricky parts bit by bit since then.

nerpderp82 3y ago

I didn't mention C++ at all. Was that my argument? This thread is about Python, the GIL. Mojo was brought up as a way to speed up Python code. C++ predates on C in a similar way to how Mojo predates on Python. At least C++ has extern C. https://docs.modular.com/mojo/manual/python/#call-mojo-from-python https://docs.modular.com/mojo/manual/python/#call-mojo-from-... > As shown above, you can call out to Python modules from Mojo. However, there's currently no way to do the reverse—import Mojo modules from Python or call Mojo functions from Python. One way street. Classic commons harvesting.

kelnos 3y ago
I think the person you're replying to is just trying to use an analogous example; you didn't need to bring it up. Regardless, I think it's a bit alarmist and overly aggressive to assume nefarious intent. Have the developers acted in ways such that this reputation is deserved? Also, little OT, but it took me unreasonably long to understand that you meant "predates" as the verb form of "predator", not as in "comes before chronologically". The phrase "preys on" may be more clear.
- nerpderp82 3y ago
  They aren't just trying to bring up an analogous example. It derails the discussion, it is a rhetorical device that has no bearing on the conversation at hand. > Regardless, I think it's a bit alarmist and overly aggressive to assume nefarious intent. You can think those things. You can try and color my points using whatever language you want. That doesn't make it true, you are putting words in my mouth about "nefarious intent". Mojo is taking Python programmers and their programs out of the Python ecosystem and bring them into their ecosystem. Thanks for the splaining about predates, I'll continue to use it. Mojo is definitely 'taking booty' from Python.

android42 3y ago

I wasn't sure whether to agree with this or not, so I finally took a slightly closer look at Mojo just now. This depends on how they license it going forward, and whether they make it open, or use being a superset as a way to capture then trap python users in their ecosystem, and I don't think we have a certain answer which path they'll take yet. The way they let you mix python compatible code with their similar but more performant code [1] looks interesting and provides a nice path for gradual migration and performance improvements. It looks like one of the ways they do this is by letting you define functions that only use typed variables which is something I would like to see make its way back to CPython someday (that is optionally enforcing typing in modules and getting some performance gains out of it). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojo_(programming_language)#Programming_examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojo_(programming_language)#Pr...

Intralexical 3y ago
> It looks like one of the ways they do this is by letting you define functions that only use typed variables which is something I would like to see make its way back to CPython someday (that is optionally enforcing typing in modules and getting some performance gains out of it). This is already how Cython and MYPYC work. You add standard PEP-484 type annotations, and they use that to infer where code can be compiled to native instructions. https://cython.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/tutorial/pure.html https://cython.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/tutorial/pure.ht...
oivey 3y ago
The typing thing is really unnecessary and a step backwards, IMO. Added typing is maybe great for managing a code base, but it isn’t necessary for performance with a compiler that can do type inference.